The Passionistas Project Podcast

Pioneer Nan Kohler Brings Flour Milling to the City

Nan Kohler is the owner of Grist & Toll, an urban flour mill in Pasadena, California. After spending years in the wine industry, Nan turned back to her first love, baking, and was inspired to become a pioneer of the local whole grain movement.

Read more about Grist and Toll.

Read more about The Passionistas Project.

Hear more from Nan in these bonus clips:

BONUS: Nan Kohler on the milling process at Grist and Toll

BONUS: Nan Kohler on the name Grist and Toll

BONUS: Nan Kohler on where she sources her grain

BONUS: Nan Kohler on how long does her flour lasts

BONUS: Nan Kohler on what she would be eating if she could be anywhere

BONUS: Nan Kohler on Passionista Clemence Gossett

BONUS: Nan Kohler on not having role models or mentors

BONUS: Nan Kohler on her pop culture icon

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT:

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And today we're talking to Nan Kohler the owner of Grist and Toll, an urban flour mill in Pasadena, California. After spending years in the wine industry Nan started selling her baked goods at the Studio City Farmer's Market and working at the Sweet Butter Kitchen. But after seeing a video about a mill in Bath, England, Nan was inspired to open Grist and Toll and become a pioneer of the local grain movement. So please welcome to the show Nan Kohler.

Nan: Good morning. Thanks for having me.

Passionistas: Our pleasure. Thank you for being here. So, what are you most passionate about?

Nan: There are many things, so it's hard to narrow that down to something singular but they do all revolve around whole grain. And so I am definitely very, very passionate about changing everyone's perceptions of whole grain and what that means for baking. And on all different levels from an artisan sour dough loaf of bread to the fanciest type of French pastries.

Passionistas: So how does that translate into what you do for a living?

Nan: Well I am creating flour so it is just like making wine, roasting coffee beans, teas, everything hinges on the quality of that sourcing of ingredients. So it's really critical that I continue establishing long term relationships and collaborations with farmers and that we have a continuing dialogue on the types of grain and the diversity of grain that is being planted and how it's being grown. Because we're not used to thinking about flour as a flavorful ingredient. We're thinking of it as the body of what you're making. But all the different grains really do have dramatically different flavor, aroma, color, character, textures. So it's really quite complex. What you can do when you keep the integrity of that grain intact that's what gives you all of those different choices but everything depends on the quality of the grain to begin with.

Passionistas: So how did we become a country or a world where flour just became this bland ingredient?

Nan: Well we decided we wanted white bread. So that really everything about what is grown, how it is grown, how it is milled and processed and handled is all in service to basically creating that white sandwich loaf of bread at the grocery store at a very, very cheap price. So older grains, the stone milling process that I use, those are disadvantages to creating the white bread so they had to go away. And things had to radically change in order to give that to us.

Passionistas: So how did you get interested in all of this?

Nan: I don't know that there's an easy answer for that. I've been a lifelong baker, so looking at my ingredients and what I'm using to create cakes or cookies or pies that's always been very interesting to me. But we really have been trained not to think about flour. Right? Someone else tells you this is your bread flour. This is what pastry flour is about. But I'm a curious baker. And so when I was baking that Sweet Butter and even just at home I was integrating oat flour, rye flour, whole grain pastry flour, all sorts of different things. So I'm naturally kind of curious and inquisitive that way. And I really believe that my time in the wine industry is what brought a lot of this... It may not have brought it into focus as in 'Nan you're going to open a flour mill someday' but it definitely affected my palate and my awareness of flavors and textures which one hundred percent affected what I create as a baker. And so it was kind of being in the place thinking about creating something of my own, wanting it to definitely still engage all of those things that I love — restaurants, chefs, bakeries, pastries and cooking. And that's definitely what led me on the path, or at least made me open, to when I watched that television show thinking whoa the flour and they go to see the local mill. And here I am in Los Angeles with access to everything and the best of everything. And I have no idea what it means to put my hands in fresh flour.

Passionistas: How did you actually go about building your own company and building the mill?

Nan: That is still a work in progress. I've officially been open for five years and on the one hand as a sole entrepreneur and someone working the business every single day, five years feels like a significant amount of time. I definitely energy-wise feel I've put the work in but there's still so much of a learning curve that it literally still feels like five weeks to me because it never ends. All the things that I have to know about and educate myself on. It's just a constantly moving target. So it's very interesting. I've had these moments from time to time because if you read a lot of books and biographies of people who've started their own business, successful entrepreneurs, everything seems to happen in a very linear way and there are these big celebrated moments. And I thought well I'll have that too on the day that the mill shows up it's gonna be a party with champagne and this big thing. And in the end it really is just one day after the next kind of problem solving.

So the day the mill arrived from the port we were in the middle of troubleshooting things for the health department and permitting things. And it was really a moment of great. It's here. I hope it's not completely destroyed inside that box. Once we push past this problem we'll take a look at what's inside. There weren't these big, significant pauses or celebratory resting places along the way. So for me what is the most exciting about this is I don't think it will ever be static. That's also incredibly challenging because you don't ever get to just kind of rest on your laurels and take a beat. But it definitely keeps keeps me engaged.

So the beginning it was a hunt for equipment. If you want to mill on a smaller scale you can't go to the yellow pages and find 500 resources for that. Most of that equipment is made overseas. Because smaller or larger scale bakeries in Europe, it's still a pretty general practice that they buy grain and they mill for themselves. They do a lot more wholegrain baking so the stone milling component makes sense. So in the beginning it is sourcing.

Next it is OK you're going to do something definitely considered outside the box in the Los Angeles food world. Who is going to allow you to do it in their city? So the hunt for where to land the business took about a year and a half.

And then  there's a lot of just fine tuning and tweaking and relentless education. And again I made comparisons earlier to the wine industry and the coffee industry. Any time you want to take something that is big and industrial and make it very small and personal you just fight the economies of scale all the time. So micro distillers, micro beer brewers, we all also have to become mechanics and repair people and source creatively for things that make sense for our process and our equipment. But is not a mill in a box or from that one place that helps all of the local regional stone millers put everything together. So you're building it kind of out of thin air.

Passionistas: We all have been taught for years that if you're going to eat healthy gluten products get whole grain. But what does that really mean and what is the nutritional value of these whole grains you are talking about?

Nan: Well it's significant. And we really have lost a lot of fiber in our diets by walking away from whole grain. I'm going to be really honest. One of the most frustrating things that I find in the marketplace right now is there's a lot of excitement about heirloom wheat, stone milling, whole grains, artisan bread baking, sour dough bread baking as Instagram is exploding right. But there's not a lot of transparency with those names and terms. I remember hearing from the baking community that whole wheat if you wanted to make a whole wheat bread it had to be 51 percent whole wheat. The term whole grain is not really regulated. And actually that expectation on whole wheat is not correct. But it took me almost two years to be connected with the right people at the whole grains council to actually look at the FDA rules and regulations so whole wheat means whole — whole wheat. There can't be any refined white flour in a product that wants to carry the label whole wheat.

Nan: So for us in the real world it just is obvious that they don't have the ability to enforce that on the street at all levels. They do with Sara Lee and Eggo waffles. If you go, because I did the experiment I said OK. Whole wheat means whole 100% whole wheat and I just started flipping over loaves of bread and boxes in the freezer section and sure enough they say whole wheat. If it says wheat flour that's sifted white flour. So there's a lot of smoke and mirrors out there and now whole grain is kind of being corrupted because it doesn't have that written policy attached to it. Consumers who are definitely interested in health now and transparency in the food system can find it very frustrating out there. And a lot of home bakers who come to see me will say I'm using your flour, I'm using your formula and my bread doesn't look like the Instagram photo. Except that the Instagram photo that says spelt bread is only 10 percent spelt.

So there's nothing kind of regulating our community right now. So that we're all on the same page with how we're being transparent and educating the marketplace. And it's a huge problem because we're already diluting a lot of the work that some of us in these regional movements are really busting our tails to do. So if it's an iron corn loaf of bread I expect it to be iron corn. And I've had a lot of conversations with bakers well what percentages and I said well my answer is if you're buying a cabernet sauvignon how much riesling do you want in that bottle? You don't. You're buying cabernet sauvignon. If you're buying Bordeaux. You understand it's a blend of the approved red grapes and things like that. So I think that ultimately we're going to have to get to some sort of real regulations on labelling. It's just a question of how. How long will it take to get there? But for me I'm the girl who started the #WholeMeansWhole. So if it says whole grain that means it's whole wheat but it might not be wheat. It might be spelt and therefore it's grain.

Passionistas: How do people learn to adjust recipes to do that... To go a hundred percent?

Nan: Well that is the million dollar question because there isn't a simple answer. There are definitely grains like spelt that I just mentioned that make it easier to do a one to one sub for all purpose flour. But they don't behave exactly the same. And so you can either look at that as an immovable obstacle for you as a baker or you can look at it as I do which is this is what makes it incredibly inspiring and fun. And at the end of the day it's a chocolate chip cookie, if I need to take out a little bit of flour in the next round because I felt it was a little thick or heavy. It's not the end of the world. So my best answer for you is they are different. It's not a one to one sub certainly not with bread flour and in bread recipes. That's where it can be the most challenging but for most home baking and for most all purpose recipes — cookie, scones, quick breads, muffins, waffles – we're pretty fearless here. And we do kind of our ripped from the headlines experiments where we'll just pull a recipe from a current issue of Food and Wine magazine or Bon Appetit, something that looks interesting. And we just pick our grain and we go all in one to one. And literally 95% of the time we don't have to change anything.

Nan: So you just have to go for it. And then, we do give advice for how to kind of tweak things. And normally what I tell people for all purpose baking is I use the flour as my control element. Meaning if a recipe calls for three cups of flour and I know that stone milled wholegrain flowers are thirstier, so they interact with being hydrated differently than a white all purpose flour does. That's the thing that's the most dramatic, color because they won't look as white but then also in application. And so it's pretty difficult to say you're going to need to bump up your hydration 10 to 12 percent. I can say that to a bread baker because that's a certain number of grams of water only. I can't tell that to someone who's going to make a blueberry muffin. Because the liquid is the sugar, the butter, the eggs, the sour cream or butter milk. And how do you adjust 12 percent on an egg? And something else is ridiculous.

But what I have found through practice is if the recipe calls for three cups of flour and I want to use heirloom sonora wheat, I simply the first time I make it will withhold about three tablespoons of flour. And leave all of my liquid ingredients the same. And usually that's all I need to do. If I look at that batter and it's just soup it is so much easier to sprinkle in a little more flour and fold it in again than to try to do the math calculations and adjust everything else.

Passionistas: How many people in the country are there like you that are doing this?

Nan: Well there is a lot of smaller scale regional stone milling happening. And it's happening on many different levels. Bakers are starting to mill for themselves. Farmers that are reintroducing wheat as part of their crop rotation. Some farmers are putting mills on their land and introduce flour there. As far as I know there is no other urban flour mill. So no one has really taken the soul craft of milling and dropped it in the middle of a big city.

Most of them are attached to farms or associated with one of their growers or are out in more rural environments, which I get. Because it's definitely, some of the difficulties can be removed. You can have you know, pay much less rent, have a much bigger space. But I still think the biggest obstacle to changing how we grow wheat and how we create flour is the public has to have access to it or they're not going to demand it. We have to create the marketplace and everything is a bit backwards. And we're actually very behind what the market wants right now. Customers would love it if I was open seven days a week. They'd love it if I had a second location in Santa Monica. Los Angeles is big and it's tough to get around. So it's a big deal that that many people drive out here and have found me It's pretty incredible and that says that the market is out there to support this even though there's a lot of projected what I call kind of extremist ideas that say we can never do this because the cost it's just too extreme. Between what we're used to and what we actually have to get to in order to create something sustainable.

Passionistas: What is your dream scenario for what this company is 10 years from now?

Nan: Well that's a great question because it is not the same as it was when I opened. I will tell you this I outgrew this space two years ago easily. So in ten years I won't be here. I can't be here. Because I can't sustain the growth in this space. I will absolutely be having very regular educational baking classes. I hope that at that time I also have a nice network of farmers. And we are planting seed diversity and saving seed and providing seed. And information for other regional hubs that want to develop. I hope that in 10 years I'm more of a tangible resource also for other people who would like to do this. I hope that I'd be able to collaborate on a larger baking scale with higher volume companies that want to integrate local wheat. So how do you find it? How do you put the pieces together for someone to mill it? And how do you then reformulate higher volume production needs to accommodate local wheat? Those are the things that have to have happen. I hope that won't all be on me but we'll see.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Nan Kohler. To take your baking skills to the next level. Visit GristAndToll.com and shop their incredible line of wholegrain freshly milk products. Now here's more of our interview with Nan.

You're part of this local grain movement and you've really become a conduit between farmers and bakers and share information back and forth. So what changes have you seen on both ends of the process in the five years you've been doing this?

Nan: I've seen the noise level increasing. And so it's not as difficult to grab someone's attention and have a conversation either with a farmer or with a baker. I'm gonna be honest though and say I haven't felt great movement in action on the ground. So I feel tremendous excitement and movement and support from the home bakers. On the industrial side, on larger scale bakeries, it's much more difficult. It's going to take a long, long time for them to wrap their heads around the difference in price point, having to change formulas and practices on a higher scale. So obviously I get that. I understand that. But at the same time at a certain point, more people have to have to also jump and take that leap of faith or we don't get that change. Or we need more urban mills who can simply put it in a higher percentage of the home baking community because they are in. And they are looking for more people more collaborators. They would love it if they could come here and I could give them 20 bakeries that they could go to that are primarily using local wheat. They're ready to spend their money there. It's just really slow going getting those people on board and the difficulty with seeing big change in smaller regional farms is another topic that has come up a lot when I have conversations with other collaborators. And that is this idea of shared risk. We cannot continue to expect smaller farmers to bear all of the financial burden of putting all of this back into place.

Secure the organic land. Buy the really, really rare hard to get heirloom seed. Grow it out. Buy a new combine so that you can harvest yourself because you have a smaller plot of land and the big guys only do you know thousands of acres at a time, not tens, or hundreds of acres. Buy new seed cleaning equipment for tens of thousands of dollars. So there is still a tremendous disconnect between someone wanting a reasonably affordable bag of local flour in their hand versus the actual backbreaking costs of what it takes to get there.

And so I've begun having very real conversations with others saying we all have to pony up. Because it's also difficult for me. If I want more seed diversity I can go buy seed and I can pay a farmer to grow it for me. But when that harvest comes it's mine. And in this tiny facility I can't store all of it. So even for me the burden of the cost of cold storing that grain or having a satellite location where I will have to hold it for — depending on how big the harvest is — six months to a year. I don't really get that expense back when I charge even a very expensive price for one bag of flour. So bakers have to start committing to the volume right. We all have to contribute some funds upfront to take some of that burden off of the farmers so that we can really start seeing increases in volumes. Because my worst fear is that this will just perpetually be a cool little niche sort of a thing. And those of us who are in the trenches. That's the last thing we want. The farmers want to feed their communities. I want to feed my community. I want to feed creativity. And I don't want it to be for an elite circle of people who have X number of dollars a year in disposable income. I want everyone to have real food. And the flour and the process that is out there right now is not real. It's artificially stimulated and it's not good for us and it's got to change.

Passionistas: You've mentioned home bakers. How do you go about educating them so they know that they have choices beyond going to the supermarket and picking out the baking flour versus the all-purpose flour?

Nan: Well we just do it here as much as we can. So every person who works with me is a baker. And so we all take turns going out there and helping customers and answering questions. To the best of my ability we also are testing every week here at least a little bit. So that we can create recipe cards. So that when someone buys that Ronan the French wheat that I had grown. We have at least two or three things that we know works. And we have our own hands-on experience with it, to be able to tell them any little minor tweaks or adjustments we think they're going to make. The educational component is daunting not because it's difficult to talk about the grains but just one person amassing all of that information and trying to get it out into the marketplace is ridiculous. I can't do it on my own. So we still need more people working with this product. Also putting that information out there.

It's funny how as a small business owner, the challenges they just move as your business grows. In the beginning, it was that just that battle to get open and to put everything in place. And then it is, am I even going to find local wheat? And what does that look like and how do I pay for it and get things going? Will anyone show up at the front door when I put the open sign out? Now even though many of those challenges still exist I'm going to honestly say my number one challenge is that I really need to just be baking all day every day and creating that content. I should have videos on my website. Every weekend you should be able to come in here and taste a new fabulous baked good and walk out with that recipe card. I should be blogging. It doesn't end but that need is very clearly there and the interest is there. So it's really frustrating for me that I can't deliver in spades on all of that every single day. But the production volume is high enough now that I'm really I'm tied to the mill every single day.

Passionistas: So you said you feel like you don't have enough time in the day to do everything but what about those days when you just don't want to do anything? Like how do you keep yourself motivated?

Nan: Yeah those are tough. I'm not going to lie. They happen pretty regularly because I really haven't had a vacation and it's been intense in five years. And I will just tell you it's like everything else. There were, there have been moments where I thought it's just not gonna work. I'm never gonna be able to open the doors. That certain city people are not going to sign off. They just don't get it and are too afraid. I've had tremendous problems with grain arriving and being all over the bed of the truck instead of in the bags and things that have made it incredibly difficult. And honestly it is just that work ethic. You get up and you show up. And once I'm here it may be that I'm not in such a great mood and I have a lot of drama to deal with. But I just put my head down and one thing at a time. I try to attack what I can. I gave up on checking off the to do list at about week number two because every day my to do list grows by 10 pages and maybe I cross off three or four from the top. So it's, it's intense but I just had to start to be okay with showing up and doing what I can. And I still get stuff done even on those bad days. And also inevitably on one of those day, one retail customer comes in and says wow thank you for being here you changed my life, and that list of 10 pages is irrelevant.

Passionistas: So is there one lesson you've learned during your journey so far that really sticks with you?

Nan: I think it was just so worth it taking that leap of faith. If something horrible happened. If I found out I just can't do this anymore. If I did get to that point where things were just it was too hard to source the wheat and not enough income coming in for the business. I would have no regrets. Because taking that leap and just showing up and trying to do the work has taught me that really anything is possible. And even if you don't get your best outcome, it is magical along the way. Because there's so much more that empowers you and reaffirms why you believe what you do. Why we need to have courage. Why it's good to fight for change. And I never would have had that confidence in at least those resources within myself if I hadn't.

Passionistas: What's been your biggest professional challenge and how do you overcome it?

Nan: I don't think I've overcome my biggest professional challenge. My biggest professional challenge is this is much bigger than me and I don't think that's going to end anytime soon. So instead of just opening a flour mill I decided I wanted to change flour and changing flour is so much bigger than Nan Kohler. And it involves a lot of other people and a lot of other things that I have zero control of. Also putting out their best work and the chances of me getting that all day every day. In addition to my own tasks are pretty slim. So my biggest challenge is coping with the things that I have no control over and knowing that they're never gonna go away and I'm not super great at that. I am a person who is pretty self-sufficient and if I'm interested and I'm trying and engaged I can make things happen. But there is so much about changing wheat and flour that I absolutely have no chance of making happen on my own. That's the biggest challenge.

Passionistas: So what's the most rewarding part of your caree?

Nan: Every day I turn that mill on and the flour comes out. Every time I have the luxury of baking with it. It is never boring and it is never negative or intimidating even when there are failures. It simply opens up another perspective so I feel much more confident and much more in control. As a baker and you'd think it would be the opposite because my ingredient is shifting. But I find that empowering. And so again I wish I had more time to just bake. It's very therapeutic and every time I bake something with spelt I have ten more ideas of what I want to do with that or what I can and will hopefully try to do with it. And then the next harvest will come in and I'll be slightly different which is also cool and exciting.

Passionistas: So on your journey so far is there one decision you've made that you felt was like the most courageous and really changed the trajectory of your path?

Nan: I will say there are two, but one is definitely more important. The one decision to be in the city was critical and absolutely right. The second was I completely changed my perspective from the flour that I thought I was going to be milling and making. So my background as a baker is the same as everyone else's. The white all-purpose flour, the bread flour, the pastry flour. And so my business plan is full of notes and numbers calculated on sifting and creating refined flour but I was gonna be super fancy. I was gonna do like the type eighty five so I could have something like they have in France and that the pylon on bakery uses. And it didn't take me long to start milling that flour and baking with the single pass flour on the steel mills to know that I was going to completely reject that and go all in with whole grain.

So on many levels that has made my work much more difficult because I'm not only asking you to pay a higher price point for more transparency and for more diversity, but I'm basically telling you let's just forget the past two to three hundred years of the world's worst, unappealing wholegrain flour just conveniently forget that that's our history and fall madly in love with whole grain flour again. And that is a very substantial wall that I break down with every new baker who walks in because of course they come through the doors or I get inquiries from professional bakers hi can you provide us with Double O flour we'd like to start buying pallets of your locally milled Double O flour. So that first... I hate that most of the time my first conversation is starts with no I don't make that and that has changed everything. There's no turning back for me. I will not bake with refined flour again whether or not Grist and Toll exists 10 to 20 years from now. It is lifeless to me and my palate has changed. Everything about how I taste and eat and bake is radically different.

Passionistas: So when you were a little girl what lessons did your mother teach you about women's role in society?

Nan: Well my mother always worked. And she was a very big contributor to the household income. She was the household manager. And an incredible cook and baker. So her example was we work and we contribute. And we do really great stuff. And she just always instilled a lot of confidence and a lot of emotional support for me is hey you're a smart girl. You have a lot of talents and you need to feel good about that. And you need to do something with it. So there was a lot of pressure that I put on myself as a business owner I will hear those voices from home like you did return that email really. I expected more of you, that sort of thing. Responsibility and paying it forward. So those were definitely parts of my home education in a good way.

Passionistas: What's your secret to a rewarding life?

Nan: My secret is it's just always been understanding who I am. Trying to understand the limits of what I am and am not capable of on any given day. I just want to be able to go home and know that even if things didn't go my way, I gave it my best shot. And even on a bad day my best shot is pretty good. I know I'm going to try. I know I'm going to deliver my best work. I don't always win but I can live with that. As long as I'm still in the game.

Passionistas: Do you have a mantra that you live by?

Nan: Show up and care about what you're doing. And be curious. The biggest red flag for me, bakers, farmers, people from other parts, who come here and they don't have a question for me. They're not curious about what I'm doing or how I'm connecting with farmers or how I'm baking with my flours. I have no interest in people with a lack of curiosity. Asking those questions and not being afraid of being challenged is really, really important.

Passionistas: What's your definition of success?

Nan: I think it's along those same lines. Because even if I had to close Grist and Toll I would still consider this undeniably successful. I think the success is that I jumped and I went for it and it's still a work in progress but it's working. There's still so much more to do. So I don't feel successful except that I know that I'm having success because I haven't closed. It's still working. I don't think of it in terms like that. Again, it's just for now I'm showing up and I'm doing the work and things are still moving forward. 

Passionistas: What advice would you give to a young woman that wants to start some kind of specialty business like this?

Nan: I say, always feel like you should go for it. But also you cannot walk into it being afraid of the work — physically and emotionally. The more you can do kind of centering yourself and thinking about, I'd like to think about the bigger picture goals more. It makes the smaller losses more bearable. If I find that still my overarching work is still moving to something that has purpose and meaning you know it's very interesting. I've always wanted to have my own business and I think people in my life always naturally assumed I would have my own business. But coming up with that one idea that's going to be the one I've seen many people who tried and had failures before they had kind of the money maker or the really successful one. I was just kind of simmering and not really putting everything together.

I think the advice I would say is listen to yourself. Grist and Toll was the idea where I literally said to myself if I don't do this, me personally, Nan Kohler. If I'm not the one to do this and five years from now I read an article in Food and Wine magazine about someone in San Francisco or someone and someone else I will be beside myself. I won't be able to live with myself. And so it was not a lightning strike. This is it. You know and the chorus is singing "Ahhh" in the background on the big speakers but I just knew it. And so listening to that inside yourself I think is really important because that is that point, when there are some people who will say that's just a crazy idea that you have to be able to ignore. And again just trying it is the win. So I'm in favor of going for it. We need more courage and we need more people taking leaps of faith. Otherwise we're just simmering like I was.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Nan Kohler. To take your baking skills to the next level, visit Grist and Toll.com and shop their incredible line of whole grain freshly milled products. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast so you don't miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.

Madonna Cacciatore

Madonna Cacciatore is the Executive Director of Christopher Street West/LA Pride. Prior to taking on this role, Madonna worked as Director of Special Events at the Los Angeles LGBT Center overseeing projects including their annual Vanguard Awards and the Simply DiVine event. She began her career in activism at AIDS Project Los Angeles after doing grassroots work in Washington for marriage equality and volunteering at The NAMES Project — The AIDS Memorial Quilt.

Read more about LAPride.

Read more about The Passionistas Project.

 

FULL TRANSCRIPT

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. Today we're talking to Madonna Cacciatore, the Executive Director of Christopher Street West, the 501c3 non-profit that produces the annual L.A. Pride Festival and Parade. Prior to taking on this role Madonna worked as Director of Special Events at the Los Angeles LGBT Center overseeing projects including their annual Vanguard Awards and the Simply Divine Food and Wine event. She began her career in activism at AIDS Project L.A. after doing grassroots work in Washington for marriage equality and volunteering at the NAMES Project — The AIDS Memorial Quilt. So please welcome to the show Madonna Cacciatore.

Madonna: Thank you.

Passionistas: We're really glad to have you here. We're so excited to be doing this interview.

Madonna: I'm excited to be doing this interview as well.

Passionistas: What are you most passionate about?

Madonna: I think it's every living thing having a chance to thrive — every person, every animal, the planet, every tree. I cry for any time tree's cut down in L.A. which is pretty much all the time, so I'm always crying. I'm about to cry now. Yeah I just care about life.

Passionistas: So how does that translate into what you do for a living?

Madonna: It translates beautifully because I've been an activist for most of my life. I came out as a lesbian when I was 19 years old and I grew up in Texas so I had a lot of great friends and I had a lot to deal with. So ending up being here as the Executive Director of Christopher Street West L.A. Pride is kind of incredible. This isn't where I was headed. I thought perhaps it was in some alternate universe.

I came to L.A. to pursue my acting career and I was doing event production and I sort of stumbled into the nonprofit world that way. I was hired to do a event fundraiser a summer party at AIDS Project Los Angeles that was supposed to be a temp job to sort of pay the bills. And then we hit it off and then I just started working there. And then I produced more events. Meanwhile I kept my acting because that's my passion and my career my acting and theatre has been part of my life — dance and theater for my whole life. So I kept sort of all of my worlds going trying to believe that I could do all the things. I still believe I can do all the things.

But ending up with a trusted fantastic board of directors and Esther Von Montamayor who's our board president of L.A. Pride really putting his faith behind me and just sort of being a professional gay is pretty incredible. And being able to work with people who have like minds and like spirits and want to make change and want to have a place where people feel they can come out and be safe to do so. And not just come out is not even just LGBT, allies coming, out bisexual people coming out, and not being judged by our own community for who we are or by anyone for who we are. So I feel like I'm in a great position to be where I am. It fits with everything I've done in my life from lying down on the street in Washington D.C. yelling "Free Barbara's Bush" to you know being here today it's all pretty cool.

Passionistas: Tell us a little bit more about your childhood in Texas and what that was like.

Madonna: We ended up in Texas. My family's from New York but we ended up there my dad was in the military and that's where he met my mom. My grandfather had a restaurant called Dan's Venetian Club. My mom's side of the family is from Venice and Parma in Italy and my father's side was from Sicily. So they all argued about who spoke the right dialect. And they always drove into Italian when they were upset. So I know all the bad words. So my dad was in the restaurant business and my parents were you know we ate well throughout my life but I also worked really hard when I was young.

We all worked in the restaurant. You know I washed dishes, I served people my dad cussed at everybody who came in the door. He loved Italian food. I mean that was a specialty but he also cooked an amazing cheeseburger. And so somebody would come in what kind of mood is Salvadori in today can I order a cheeseburger? God damn son of a bitch you know yeah. All right whatever. Yep. How are you doing today John? You know I knew he would just he would go into a tirade and then he would be honored to fix them whatever they want. Of course I eat no meat anymore. Let's make that clear. But I grew up with everything. So I was raised by Italian Democrats in the middle of a red state. At the time though it was a little different. You know there were just the signs in the yards and people would pull people signs out of the yards for whatever politician which is very immature. But it's not like it is now. I feel like it's gotten way worse. So I still was able to just be who I was. Probably all our neighbors were Republicans. We were the only Democrats. We were the Kennedy Catholic Democrat Italians. I loved what all that stood for at the time because for me it was about being courageous and taking care of people. And so it was interesting growing up. But we always went back to New York. I have cousins and I'm actually rediscovering all my cousins that were either in Texas with me.

Interestingly enough there's a book called "The Road Back To Thurber" which is a little town called Thurber, Texas. And this pocket of Italians ended up there. And there are the Pontramolis, the Byzantines. And I'm finding them all again. And so the Cacciatoress and the Rafeals, which was my mom's side of the family. So I was very much influenced in the Italian culture. But we were in the middle of Texas. So it was sort of like not the Texas for me that I see represented sometimes. It was a different version of it. And it was pretty cool. I liked it.

Passionistas: Tell us about your acting and dancing career and what kind of projects you were involved with?

Madonna: When I was six years old my mom put me in ballet. And I was very incongruous my whole life. I was in ballet and then I was playing army with the boys. So you know I was always considered myself a tomboy. But I would also go do barre in ballet class and loved that equally as much. Because I feel like dancers are the most finely tuned athletes there are. I don't care who you are if you're a dancer you've got a grealy tuned body. And basically whenever I was dancing I started really digging like jazz and modern dance at the time — now it's contemporary. So throughout my life I always danced. I danced for about 42 years. I kind of I really still wish I'd feel like a fool right now I probably but I always feel like I have that as part of who I am and could go into a dance studio very easily.

But I moved to Chicago and did my first musical which was "Carousel." I play Louise and my best friend Gayle Beckman played Julie. We've been friends ever since. That was in 1981. I was also in dance companies but I transitioned into some musical theater and then I moved to D.C. and I became part of this like feminist Dance Troupe and we were doing this music festival called Sister Fire, which was a women's music festival. And there were people there like Tracy Chapman and Alice Walker. And it was really cool. You were just in groups of amazing women just creating art. And one of the pieces we did was about the Chinese foot binding. This woman Sandra Cameron directed this company and we basically she wrote about women's sort of history. So all of our dance was very powerful. We danced with sticks and we created the witch burnings and we did all these things but that was called "Yashin and the Golden Carp" and it was about Cinderella's feet being bound and she being the only one who didn't have the freedom to move about like her stepsisters. So it was just that story and sort of storytelling in that way was incredibly important to me. And then I transitioned from that when I moved to DC. I ended up studying at the Studio Theatre Acting Conservatory and the Shakespeare Theater. And took classes at the Folger the arena. The really cool places. DC has an amazing theater community. And so that just sort of propelled me. I stopped dancing as much and I went into theater.

And then I got this like under five rule on "The Fugitive" as the law co-star role. And it was the one with Tim Daly. It was that and I had a little teeny scene with Michelle Hurd who I still just think is one of the most wonderful people. And I was like that's it I'm moving to L.A. I got my own trailer I'd only ever done theater and extra work. So this is the first time they said oh we'll take you to your trailer and it's like I have a trailer? I thought I was going to have to stand in the rain and like wait for somebody to schlepp me somewhere. And so I moved to L.A. to pursue that.

And then I just you know I got on a few sets and I did a lot of training. I trained with Dee Wallace. Dee also one of my mentors and she taught me that I'm good enough to be here basically. I was in Dee's master class for three years with a group of people who are amazing and we're all still very, very much connected. Many are or you'll see on working you know a lot right now. So I felt very blessed in my path because I was surrounded by people always who were either creatives or who were very passionate about what they were doing in life. Whether it was entertainment or nonprofit work or just trying to feed the homeless you know. So I've been surrounded by great lights. 

And then of course when I moved here I met Robin McWilliams who is everything to me. She's clearly the better half of me.

Passionistas: Let's circle back to Washington for a minute and just tell us a little bit about the work you did on The Names Project — AIDS Memorial Quilt.

Madonna: The first year of that quilt I believe was 1987 and I went with my brother's ex partner and my brother had just been diagnosed. And then there were 2000 panels unfurled. And that was the most... I mean I was sobbing I'm in. There's a book called "The Quilt." And there's a little picture of Jimmy and me and he's he's hugging me and we were just. We'd both been sobbing. And then unfortunately when it came back two years later my brother's panel was in it. I made a panel for him and it went from like 2000 to I think 20,000 to the last year I saw it unfurled it was 45,000 panels. It was stretched from the Capital almost to the Monument on the Mall. It was quite incredible. So I volunteered. And it was a way for me to sort of heal and see that other people were experiencing what I was experiencing. And sort of be in the Sisterhood and the Brotherhood in the eyes of everyone who was dealing with this crisis and this sort of crisis of government at the same time.

Our brothers mainly at the time many gay men were dying but you know it was transcending into all communities. And to see people care and to be in one place like that is really amazing. When your heart is completely just broken and astonished that a whole group of people who could be ignored or judged because they got a disease for being gay you know are condemned. You know there was a lot of condemnation going on. Like there is now. So for me being in spaces where I could make positive change. And we learned cool things at the Quilt. They taught us how to fold up the entire quilt in 60 seconds. You had volunteers on each corner and you go fold, fold, fold, fold, put them in plastic bags. If it was a downpour you could save the quilt in 60 seconds. I mean that was pretty cool.

Also I was learning about how activism turns into action. Lying down in the street felt this is good. But when you're able to do something that feels like I'm here and I'm making a difference and I can be standing here and educate people about people who died or were actually great people. We're gonna be missing a lot in our future because they're gone. Still gets me. So it was life changing for me because that was the first sort of crisis where people were dying. And I was going to memorials in New York constantly and in D.C. and sitting by people's bedsides and going to hospitals in New York with our brothers who were just you know they try to make you wear masks. And I felt like, I'm not wearing a mask. I'm going to hug him. And so it was going from that to sort of seeing them begin to find drugs and things that would help people live. And you know where we are now which is pretty amazing that people with HIV and AIDS can thrive. So that was a pivotal point and The Names Project was very important to me.

Passionistas: Was that the beginning of your decision to really become an activist? And what's your journey been in that capacity?

Madonna: I didn't think of myself that way. I didn't think of myself as an activist. I felt like doing what I needed to do to help people live at the time. But also to help other people. And you know I'm big animal activist. I do consider myself an animal activist. Any time I see an injustice or you know with social media we see it all too often where you see horrible things happening to animals I just like literally I almost can't take it. But I have to do something to save something you know. So I'm always just like what can I. You know we have five cats. I'm sorry but I'm a typical lesbian. And it's because well three of them their momma was taken by a coyote and we ended up with those three. And the other one ran into a florist on the corner of Wilshire and Western and we had to take that one. And then the last one was on the side of a highway. So we're done. But we rescue and we have friends. My friend Addy Daddio — peace out girl I love you. She's also a great Passionista, by the way. She has an organization called Love That Dog Hollywood. She rescues dogs. My friend Angie Rubin who's also a music editor rescues every cat in the world. I mean there are a lot of good people doing a lot of good work.

So my activism I guess was just me sort of progressing through life and seeing things that I wanted to adjust or make try to make better or try to stop pain for someone. I'm not used to talking about myself in that way. It's more about being around people who are just really good people. And we have a terrible homeless crisis in L.A. right now. It's everywhere. I mean we live in the Hollywood Dell, which is kind of uphill and there are encampments everywhere. And there's this desire to make things better and help homeless people get off the street. We were actually able to help a woman who set up in one of the tunnels there. We had to keep moving her because she got beaten up once. She had a big dog and a little cat and they all lived in this tent. We're able to get them into a place where she now is thriving. She's working. She's got her animals and she's in a place where she's actually getting herself back on her feet. But had it been left to some people in the community they would just get her out of here. She doesn't belong here. Well you know it is true that also there are aggressive, mentally ill, homeless people as well. And I have as much compassion for them as I do for anybody who is on the street. But it's like we've also had people break into our building. And so what's walking the line between safety and caring.

But it's so out of control right now. I don't think anybody really knows what to do. People are struggling with how to deal with it. And so we're all activists. We're all active on whatever we're doing. It's just that my activism and my life has led me toward. I think it stems from my parents. My parents were very caring people. They would feed the entire neighborhood lasagna. They would like feed the ducks lasagna. They fed everybody lasagna, but they also, they didn't judge. My dad had a reaction to my being gay but then he wanted to invite her over for dinner like one second later. So my mom was always that person is like Oh honey she's very soft spoken I just love everybody and I just love who you are. It doesn't matter. You just you know and she was just my best friend you know. So for me it's just been about carrying an open heart and love in the world. And sometimes that's incredibly painful to.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Madonna Cacciatore. To learn more about all the exciting events at this year's L.A. Pride Festival from May 31st first to June 9th. Visit LAPride.org. Now here's more of our interview with Madonna.

Talk a little bit about your work at the LGBT center as the Director of Special Events.

Madonna: I went there right after AIDS Project Los Angeles. Position opened up I applied twice. I got in the second time I seen Lorrii Jean speak the CEO of the Center. She's one of my mentors in the world. Actually Lorri and I were probably circling each other at Sister Fire, the event I mentioned. Because we were both in D.C. at the time. So I went to work the Center. I finally got hired as an Event Manager and then promoted to Director. And we did seven or eight galas together maybe seven and Simply Divine Food and Wine event with another role model for me Susan Fenniger. I love that woman dearly. And David Bailey and Lloyd Denims. We did this LGBTQ Food & Wine event and we actually ended up bringing it the last year that I was there, which was two years ago to Hollywood Forever Cemetery. So having a food and wine event in a cemetery is really awesome. Especially Hollywood Forever because it's kind of iconic. And they do the movie screenings there. So it's a cemetery but it's also this celebration place. That's really this cool mix. So it was very successful there but we did many many great fundraising events together. An Evening with Women was one of my favorites. Linda Perry. Every time I say a name I'm like these people have influenced me so greatly. Linda gave, every year she would help us get artists like great artists like Pink and Christina Aguilera and Cei and Ozzy Osborne and every year we had this amazing lineup of music in honor of women. And Linda she produced it. She directed it. But I was just felt lucky to be in the room with a lot of these people.

In raising money, you know, when you get to announce at a gala that you raised $1.3 million dollars a night that's a great feeling. And you've raised it for an organization that's using it wisely. So the Center is one of the best. Their charity rating and their cost of fundraising is very low. They've always been really great at that. That's thanks to Lorri Jean and pretty much the entire development staff there that's helped facilitate that. I worked there for six years and I wasn't intending to leave. I was just gonna retire there and then I was approached to put my name in the hat for Christopher Street West which I did willingly.

Passionistas: They did an extensive search for the position that you now hold at L.A. Pride. So what do you think they saw in you and why did you ultimately decide you wanted to take the job?

Madonna: Well Estevan and I have been very candid with each other about that. And so have many of the board members. We had a few board members who were turned off in October but they're all amazing people. I've only been here since July. So it's not even a year, is just a few months. But Pride is an interesting concept. It started as a March. It started in reaction to Stonewall Riots. And so Pride is many things to many people. So it's very eclectic. It's very fluid like our community has become very fluid. It's not one thing and you can't try to make it one thing. Can't try to make it what this demographic wants or what... That you have to sort of look at it with big open mind and heart. And so Estevan has told me one of the things they liked about me is that I have a history and I have been an activist. But I also have an openness to our whole community. And I feel like there's a lot of value in our youth and our transgender community. And in the two spirits community I mean the Indigenous community has been probably one of the communities that's been stepped on by the white man, if I'm just being blunt, more than any of us. You know so I feel like there is an opportunity to look at things from a bird's eye view and sort of try to... I'll never get everything right for everybody. And I know that and I'm not going to try to do that. What I am going to try to do with this great board of directors is help make improvements, help make people feel included.

I went to two InterPride conferences one was in Canada. Tribal elders were there and there was a woman who spoke. I literally wept in her arms. I didn't see it coming. I went to tell her you know what she said was very relevant to me because the native community has always spoken to my heart. I did the 23andMe I was hoping there would be some but there wasn't and I was like damn it I'm all Italian I love that but I wish there was some native in there but they had an Elder Council basically talk. And one of the things one of the young people said was "We don't need inclusive space we need brave space we need space to come out we need space to be who we are unapologetically." And then she said, "I don't need to be in your canoe. You don't need me on my canoe. We are different people. We're riding in different canoes. We're having different journeys. What we do need to do is go down the river together and figure out the waters wherever they are. We have to do that together." That image is stuck out for me in my leadership at pride to make sure that I'm not trying to me in anybody's canoe. I don't even need to pretend that I understand that I know what you're going through. But I do need to be compassionate about what you're going through. And then my canoes next year and basically whatever I can do to help us get down here together. That's what I'm here to do.

So it's like throwing a festival is very tricky because you can only do so many things in one weekend. So what we're doing is trying to create Pride 365 here. Where we have different events for different demographics. We had a Trans Brunch last year. You're working on a new Trans program called Platform which is a policy and leadership training program for the Trans community. And we'll have some sort of graduation in June at Pride. So we're working on different programs and supporting other organizations. Because we don't have a health service organization but we are the umbrella. I feel like we should be sort of a leader. For other organizations and be giving back. So that's what we're going to be doing this year as well.

Passionistas: What do you think are the key skills that you bring to your job here?

Madonna: I think listening is a huge missed opportunity most of the time. I listen. Sometimes it results in me trying to take on too much admittedly but I'd rather try things and they not work out that way. But maybe we could try a different way than not try something at all. Also growing up where I did and with parents who dealt with their own struggles I learned to navigate personalities and energy and where somebody might be in the moment I guess is is a phrase I would use. Because I was always living in the moment. You know my parents were awesome but they also struggled with their own addictions so sometimes that resulted in different behaviors. So I would have to navigate those and I would also say that in any nonprofit we have a board of 15 people. Every one of those people have incredibly different ways of doing things and they're all valuable. So how do you navigate. I think it's one of my skills is like listening and focusing energy where it needs to go. Sometimes I need help focusing my own energy because I want to go do all the things all the time and I can't do that. But yeah I think listening and sort of trying to keep the flow going basically in a positive direction.

Passionistas: We read that you like to find projects that advance social justice through creativity and artistry. Why is that important to you and how do you do that?

Madonna: My creative self, my dancer self, my actor self, all those things have helped me. Creativity has helped me through any hard time I've ever had. And it's also helped me through the good times. Like I thrive when I'm on a stage. I thrive when I'm doing work that's impacting a whole bunch of people at the same time. I love doing theater. Theater has always been at my soul. You know I just love creating character and finding bits of myself. And observing life when creating character. It doesn't take you away from what's happening in the world but it helps find a positive focus for what's happening in the world. And some of the best artists are the ones who have been through the most difficult things in their lives. And so I see people take hard times and create art from them too and that's inspirational to me. I mean watching a great performance is just god, that's what inspires me. That's what I want to do. When you watch somebody just go to those nuances in themselves and take you on a journey that's everything. Any time I've ever done any thing — dance or theater or I got to do one episode of "How to Get Away With Murder" — you know being on a set with somebody like Viola Davis Oh my God I was very humbled and also very empowered by that experience. 

And it doesn't matter. Robin and I just shot a very short film with a AFI Conservatory with these young filmmakers who were so inspirational. And they're so beautiful and they're so engaged. And you're just creating these moments and you watch them work and you go god I'm inspired by this person's life. Twenty three years old and they already have this beautiful skill that they're honing right now. I wish I'd done that when I was younger. I have no regrets about it but I wish my younger self I could have said you can do that and you'll be okay. So I love seeing people who believe in themselves like that.

Passionistas: Having a front row seat basically to the LGBTQ movement, what do you think is the most significant changes you've seen and what do you think still needs to be done?

Madonna: We made a lot of progress since 2008 when we were talking about Proposition 8. And you know since Ellen came out. You know I mean if you just think of when Ellen came out and the hell she went through to just come out. And it's much more acceptable to sort of come out today than it was when I was young or in anytime in between then. However, I think we made a lot of progress and marriage equality became the law of the land. And that we were able to say that we could get married. I can call my wife my wife. I couldn't have said that five years ago. Now of course I'd never thought of myself as a wife. I don't know what the word is. But like I always sort of related more masculine in my growing up and then like you know sort of like a butch lesbian when I was younger and so now I could do that my younger self. I had a... I did have a mullet. And remember Ellen's mullet, mine sort of look like hers. And then when I was younger people would actually call me Sir sometimes I go oh thank you sir because I had very short hair. And I had actually no boobs. And like because I was a dancer I had like no body fat at all. So I was kind of lean and mean at the time. Now you know still in spite of what's happening I still feel like... I love what President Obama said the arc of history is long. So I feel like even though we went to this great place and we all feel like oh man, and it feels like we're going backwards. We're not going backwards we're going forward but somebody is trying to pull us backwards. I guess is the way I look at it and we're not going there.

Yes they're trying to take more rights away but I can still be in a group of straight people and my you know I mentioned Gayle Beckman earlier. She and her husband Bill have been my friends all these years. They live in Vegas. We go there although you know as much as we can and we're in groups of their friends who are like so Madonna and Robi, when you were married. Let's see your wedding pictures. And they're talking to us in a way that we just want to be talked to like. We're just people who love each other and got married.

They're not talking to us about they're gay so or however people identify. They're really just interested in who we are. And I think that's what we have to keep doing. We have to keep just remembering who we are. Our brand for L.A. Pride last year was #JustBe. And basically I think that applies to anybody, anywhere, anytime. Just be who you are. If you're an asshole if you're going to hurt somebody else then you're not welcome in my world. And you're not welcome in this world. Because this is about respect, mutual respect, and love for one another .and that's basically all we're here to do.

You know I think we're certainly a long way from where we were and for the good. But we've been challenged again. So we have to step up and honestly I thought I was really done. I honestly thought that I wasn't gonna have to protest as much. I think a lot of us thought that and now here we are since 2016. My wife started drinking wine that woman never drink before. So I figured if we come home at night just like we have wine and I'm like Oh my god, who are you? Yes again. But yeah it's... It's just changed the way we have to step up right now.

Passionistas: What's been your biggest professional challenge and how did you overcome it?

Madonna: I'm probably having my biggest professional challenge because our community is so diverse and so passionate about how each person has gotten where they are today. And each person in our community has traveled through challenges. I actually very very fortunate and September I got to go to China with the Los Angeles LGBT Center. I was already here. But it was a trip we already had planned and we were going to visit LGBT young leaders in China. They've come over here and done. We've worked with them at the Center so different groups would come through and we would talk to them. The challenges here are looking at our community's diversity and figuring out how to create brave space for everybody and then going back to China. When I when I was we went to four different cities all around China. So they were I was seeing and hearing things that I was experiencing 20 years ago. But with people who were really actively making change in a very difficult situation. They can't even, they they can try to raise money but they can't talk about it on social media. They can't really invite, they invite people verbally. They can't you can have you know sort of organized events like that.

So basically it was interesting to me to see to be there and to be doing that work with Darrell Cummings an amazing group of people at the Center. And then come home and go wow my challenges feel really different right now. What I'm not trying to do is please every person in the world what I'm trying to do is understand how far our movements come and how we situate ourselves because it's always fluid and there's never a comfortable moment really so it's a where are we in this movement at this point. And that changes all the time. So you know my biggest challenge is right now and it's it's navigating everything I know with where I'm going to take my leadership with CSW and in what kind of a legacy I want to leave here. And also working with a lot of different people with a lot of different personalities and a lot of different opinions and a lot of anger and a lot of happiness. I mean we we run the gamut because we've all been through so much. So I feel like I'm really challenged right now and I might be like call on you guys and go help me. You know it's really just staying staying in your truth. That's it. You know. And that's what I, Robin helps me do that. Because if I come home and I'm like you know there's this happening in this she says, "Just do what you do." And that's what I just keep trying to remember just do what you do. Sometimes I just need to remind her about keeping myself true to myself.

Passionistas: What's the most rewarding part of your career?

Madonna: Teaching through love and kindness. Seeing people kiss. Seeing Transgender people feel safe in any environment. Seeing someone do something that they may not have felt safe to do. Many of us weren't doing the work we're doing. So yeah seeing somebody walking around with HIV that's perfectly healthy. There are many walking examples of things that are rewarding to me.

Passionistas: What advice would you give to a young woman who wants to be an advocate or just do good with her life?

Madonna: Just stay true to yourself. Stay true to the reason you started doing this. Don't let people throw you off. Listen to people. Don't listen to the negative voices but listen to the voices of people who you know are caring and who maybe have experience or who even are starting out. For example I was talking about that little film we did by watching the director and the cinematographer work. I was learning more about myself. I was learning more about who how can I. You know so always there's always a lesson for you somewhere and sometimes it's the lesson of how you want to move forward. And sometimes it's lesson of the voices you don't need to hear anymore. Because some of the voices are not helpful. Some of them are negative. There's a lot of hate spewing right now and people being beaten up. So whatever's happening you have to go back to your internal self, your true self and realize why you started doing this to begin with. And just sort of reconnect with that.

Passionistas: What's your definition of success?

Madonna: Success is happiness. Just being able to thrive. It's being able to live in a place where you can be yourself. And at that place whether it's a physical place or just an internal place just being able to live in a place where you're happy with who you are.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Madonna Cacciatore. If you're in Los Angeles between now and June 9th, be sure to check out one of the many L.A. Pride Festival events including the Opening Ceremony on June 7th. The L.A. Pride Festival on June 8th and 9th with headliners Meghan Trainor and Years & Years and the L.A. Pride Parade in West Hollywood on June 9th. Visit LAPride.org to get all the details. And be sure to subscribe to the Passionistas Project Podcast. Do not miss any of our upcoming inspiring guests.