The Passionistas Project Podcast

Linda Hollander Is Helping Women Get Sponsorships

Linda Hollander, CEO of Sponsor Concierge and the founder of the Sponsor Secrets Seminar, has been featured by Inc magazine as the leading expert on corporate sponsorship. She has over 20 years of experience as a small business owner, and as the industry leader in teaching people how to tap into the awesome power of corporate sponsors. She's the author of the number one bestseller "Corporate Sponsorship in Three Easy Steps." She's also the CEO of Sponsor Concierge and the founder of the Sponsor Secrets Seminar. Her sponsors include Microsoft Epson, Wells Fargo, Dun and Bradstreet, FedEx, American Airlines, Staples, HealthNet, Marriott, IBM aandt Walmart. Al Lapin Jr. The founder of IHOP restaurants says, "If your goal is to be a success, Linda Hollander has paved the way for you."

Learn more about Linda.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

Full Transcript:

Passionistas: Hi, and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Linda Hollander. Linda has been featured by Inc magazine as the leading expert on corporate sponsorship. She has over 20 years of experience as a small business owner, and as the industry leader in teaching people how to tap into the awesome power of corporate sponsors. She's the author of the number one bestseller "Corporate Sponsorship in Three Easy Steps." She's also the CEO of Sponsor Concierge and the founder of the Sponsor Secrets Seminar. Her sponsors include Microsoft Epson, Wells Fargo, Dun and Bradstreet, FedEx, American Airlines, Staples, HealthNet, Marriott, IBM aandt Walmart. Al Lapin Jr. The founder of IHOP restaurants says, "If your goal is to be a success, Linda Hollander has paved the way for you." So please welcome to the show Linda Hollander.

Linda: Hey, great to be here, ladies.

Passionistas: We're so excited to have you. Thank you, Linda. What's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Linda: Oh wow. Just one thing. Uh, well I'm, I am actually a Sponsor Passionista and that's what I'm most excited about. I love empowering women financially, so they can make better choices in life, so they can live their passion as you teach them to do. Uh, so they can send their kids to better schools, uh, so they can have better lives. Uh, and I want everybody has a challenge and my goal in life is to have people discover and achieve their greatness.

Passionistas: Tell us a little bit about your background and how that led to you getting into the world of corporate sponsorships.

Linda: Okay. Well, remember when I told me that everybody has challenges and especially now where we're working with a lot of challenges, what I did is I started a company with my best friend, Cheryl. And that's why I love forums like this because I am all about women's empowerment. And I've been in that movement for over 20 years. So Cheryl and I though, we met when we were 13 years old at recess and we became bonded. We became, I guess, kind of closer than sisters. And I know you two have a lot of girl power going on. Uh, so we said, "Oh my God, when we grow up, if we do something together, it's going to be amazing and it's going to be absolutely phenomenal." So we started this company, uh, it was all about bags, uh, because I was an art major. I didn't study business at all in college.

Uh, everything I took was art. I thought business was boring. She was a, a cinema major. Uh, but, uh, we got together and we started this company producing bags. And when I say bags, I don't mean ladies purses. I mean, promotional shopping bags, the ones that you see at trade shows and at shopping malls. And our clients were Disney and Mattel and Nissan. And, you know, we had all know, we turned this little silly, stupid idea of producing bags into a multi-million dollar business. Now that's all well and good. And Oh my God, working with your best friend is amazing. Uh, but it wasn't always that way for me, because before I started my business, I was in a dead end job. Uh, I wasn't making enough money at my job. So I borrowed on credit cards and then pretty quickly I saw that, Oh my God, when I went to the mailbox, my hand would literally shake when I opened that mailbox because there were bills there that I could never, ever afford to pay.

And I wasn't living larger or anything. I was just kind of trying to make my rent every month. And sometimes it was, it was a struggle. A lot of times it was a struggle. I had to work with people that I didn't like. Uh, I had a very abrasive relationship with my boss and you know, my heart and my soul was absolutely crying out because I had the fire of an entrepreneur. And this kind of was a toxic situation to be in, in that business. Sometimes at lunch, I would go into my car and I would cry.

And on my, uh, personal side, in my personal life, I was in a relationship with an abusive man. And I stayed in that relationship for many years because basically I thought that was what I deserved. And I couldn't see a way out of it. Fortunately, ladies, one day I had an epiphany and, uh, uh, I fired my boss. Uh, I dumped the abusive boyfriend and I called my friend Cheryl. And I said, do you want to take the biggest adventure ride of our lives together and start a business? And fortunately she said, yes.

So that started me on a trajectory. I was able to move out of my little rent controlled apartment. I bought my first home as a single woman. I was able to travel the world. I was able to pay down that debt. That was absolutely choking me. But what I loved most was mentoring other people in business because they didn't just come to me to order bags. And by the way, we were one of the only female owned packaging companies. So we walk, we work with a lot of women business owners and they said, "Linda, how do I do sales? How do I do marketing?" So then I came up with the idea of creating a women's small business expo because I wanted to show other women how to empower themselves by learning entrepreneurship.

And then I looked and I said, "Oh my God, to do this event the way I want to do it. Cause I wanted to do a really high class event. Uh, it's going to be a lot of money." So that's when I went on the internet and I said, what are these things called sponsors? And I found out that sponsors would underwrite — write this down. If you're near a piece of paper — your business, your event, uh, if you're a speaker, if you're an author, you can get sponsors. If you have a podcast, if you have a blog, if you're a social influencer, if you have a show, you could get a sponsor. And lastly, if you want to start a nonprofit charity, you can get sponsors. And I work with a lot of people who do projects like documentary filmmakers. And then what I'm going to tell you today about getting sponsors. You could apply to your child also. Because if your child is in an after-school group or a sports team, you can use these techniques for your child.

So basically my first sponsors were bank of America, Walmart and IBM. And this was working from my home, uh, actually from my kitchen table with the cat as my only employee. Uh, and, uh, you know, I had no experience. I'd never done an event in my life. Here's what I did though. I sold them on the concept and I'm going to tell you how to get sponsors by selling them on the concept of what you do. And then people would come to the events and they'd say, "Linda, I love this, but how are you getting all these sponsors?" And so now we do events and I do consulting about how you can get corporate sponsors to fund your dreams.

Passionistas: How can people identify their potential sponsors?

Linda: The best way to identify your potential sponsors is by your demographics. Write this down. If you're near a paint pen and paper — demographics are destiny. So I'll give you my demographic. And it, at the time it was women's business owners. So women business owners, oh my God, there's such spending power. There there's such economic power. There. Women are starting businesses at twice. The rate of men, women make or influence over 85% of the purchasing decisions in America. Women in America spend more than five countries combined. So I researched this and that's what I, how I chose my sponsors. Another way to find your sponsors is to look at similar properties and who's sponsoring them.

So what you have now, it's called a property. Whether it's your business or your event or your book or your speaking, or your show, it's called a property in the world of sponsors. So what I did was I looked at other women's business conferences and saw who the sponsors were. And they could be my sponsors too. And people say, "Oh my God, Linda on isn't their budget gone if they're sponsoring this and that?" No, absolutely not. And then you don't have to educate them on the value of what you're doing, because they're already in that particular space.

Passionistas: What are sponsors looking for?

Linda: Exactly the most important thing that you have to sell to your sponsors. And I'm going to repeat it again, is your audience, your audience. The definition sponsorship is connecting a company to people who buy things. So sponsors are looking for return on investment. So let's say you're in the parenting space and you teach parents, parents how to effectively raise their kids. Okay. The mom market, the parent market is a two point $4 trillion market, uh, in America. So that's why sponsors will pay you because you can connect them to people who can buy their stuff. It is basically a marketing play.

Passionistas: What do you think is the biggest mistake people make when they're looking for sponsors?

Linda: Uh, just one. Okay. We'll do a couple. Uh, the first is not charging enough money. Uh, if you don't ask for enough money from your sponsors, uh, basically it's going to hurt you in the sponsor world because you're telling your sponsors that you have nothing of value to offer and it's not worth their time. Uh, basically sponsorship is kind of a team sport. Uh, so what you do is you have one person in the company, that's your hero. And then they tell other people in the company about you. And eventually they decide to give you money and sponsor you. And by the way, stay tuned because I want to tell you how much you can make. So we'll talk about that a little bit later. Uh, but so not asking for enough money is one of the biggest mistakes that people make in the world of sponsorship because they don't take you seriously. And then they have to spend some time with you convince their colleagues about the value that you bring to the company.

So that's one mistake, a and then a second mistake, I guess, is just not believing in yourself because when people are just getting started in the world of sponsorships, one of the things that holds them back is why would a sponsor give money to little old me? You know, who the heck am I? And that's what I thought too. I live in Los Angeles. So guess what? I was in a traffic jam and I'm cursing the traffic jam. I'm hot, I'm bothered, I'm tired. But I look up and I see a billboard for Bank of America.

And that is another way that you could find sponsors is to monitor the media. If there's some company that's putting a lot of money into media campaigns, take note of that, cause they're more likely to sponsor you. So I see this billboard for bank of America and I said, "Oh my God, what if Bank of America could sponsor me?" Now at this point, it was just an idea in my head, um, that I didn't have any events under my belt. I didn't know if it had legs. I didn't know if people would come. Uh, so I went back to my office and basically what I did was I self-sabotaged. Because I said, "What am I crazy? You know, I'm just a little frizzy here, Jewish girl here in her kitchen. They're not going to take me seriously. Uh, and I'm going to get rejected and I really don't want that."

So I buried it for about two, but my passion like yours to help women was so strong that after the two weeks I said, what have I got to lose? Let's let's make a couple of calls. And I did call Bank of America. One person led me to another and uh, I got a guy saying, yeah, come up, come on by. So when I came by to meet them, uh, I wore my one good suit. Uh, I had a car that was more rust than paint and it was embarrassing. So I parked it like two blocks down. So nobody would see that car. And I gave them my proposal. Now, when you meet with your perspective sponsor, don't just bring one proposal. I brought four proposals so he can share it with his colleagues. Thank God. There was a desk between us, cause my knees were knocking.

And so he read over my proposal. He said, "Great. We'll we'll sponsor you." And it was a five figure sponsorship, my very first sponsorship. And I had to act like I did this all the time. And then he wanted to shake my hand and my hand was all sweaty. So I had to wipe it on the back of my one good suit, really shake his hand. Uh, and man, when I got back to my car, I did the happy dance and I waived all the Bank of America's on the way home. So I want to illustrate that even if you're just starting out, even if you have no experience, even if you have no following, I didn't even have a following or a fan base at the time I had my parents and my brother-in-law and that was it. If I could have put the cat on there, I would have, so I didn't have a following either, but you can do it because everybody has to start somewhere.

Passionistas: What's your advice on the best way to approach prospective sponsors and to muster up that courage to do the big ask?

Linda: I think asking for things is especially hard for women because in high school we waited for the cute guy to ask us to the dance. You know, we didn't go up and ask them. So it's kind of been programmed into us from the time where we're young, uh, not to ask for things. So you of kind of get over that the best way to approach a sponsor is by email. They want you to introduce yourself by email because a lot of sponsors have told me, uh, things off the record in the past 20 years. And one of them is that they don't want to be interrupted by a phone call, uh, because they're usually busy with something. They've usually got a boss breathing down their neck. Um, so they want you to introduce yourself by email, uh, and send a couple of emails and then you'll have a conversation with your sponsors. Uh, so that's really the best way

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington. And you're listening to the Passionists Project Podcast and our interview with Linda Hollander. To learn more about Linda and how to get sponsors, go to SuccessWithSponsors.com. Now here's more of our interview with Linda.

What should be in that sponsor package that you bring with you to the first meeting?

Linda: Well, it goes into the sponsor package is a description of what you do and make it brief description. I've seen descriptions that go three, four pages. No, no, no. Remember that it should be easy to skim your sponsor proposal. You want to write the benefits of the sponsorship there. It needs to be benefit rich, or you will not get funded. Uh, and you want to write compelling benefits for the sponsors. Uh, some benefits for the sponsors are email marketing, social media, video marketing, award presentations, press releases, spokespersons work. You could be a spokesperson for a sponsor. You could do contests and all of these benefits that I'm giving you are very low costs. Some are they even no cost, but they have a high perceived value to your sponsor.

You want testimonials. If people have given you testimonials, you want to put it there. You want a marketing plan in your sponsor proposal because marketing can make or break whatever you're doing. You don't want to be the best kept secret. So tell your sponsors how you're going to market yourself. How are people going to find out about you? How are people going to read your book or see you speak or come to your event or listen to your show or donate to your nonprofit. So you want that marketing plan in there. Uh, and then lastly, storytelling, the way that we do sponsor proposals that nobody else in the country does is with storytelling. You want your story or the story of somebody that you've helped in that proposal. And I'll tell you why, because a lot of people say, "Oh, well, I'm sending this proposal to a big company and I'm going to fill it with facts and figures" and it becomes dull. It becomes boring. And I want you to stand out from the crowd.

So the storytelling creates an emotional connection and it shows the humanity of what you do. I have put in my sponsor proposals that I've been in the poverty trap, that I'd been in an abusive relationship. Uh, so you know, and that that's gotten me sponsors because it's not a faceless corporation. That's going to sponsor you. It is a human being. Who's going to make that decision and human beings make decisions emotionally.

Passionistas: You also recommend that people partner with a nonprofit. So what value does that bring to your offering?

Linda: It brings a lot of value. Um, most companies now have a social responsibility department because they've realized that cause marketing works and cause marketing CUSC use marketing is so hot that it is absolutely scorching, uh, take Target stores. When you buy from Target stores, they give money to Feeding America. So people feel better about buying at Target and especially the moms feel better about buying at Target. Um, most companies that you're going to see a Subaru has a Share the Love campaign, where if you buy a Subaru, you can choose what charity they're going to to either the Humane Society or Habitat for Humanity or Stand Up to Cancer. They have a few different ones. And people really feel good and really companies want to give back and let people know that they're giving back to the community. Because there's something called the Halo Effect there. Uh, so, uh, and people like to buy from companies that support good causes.

Passionistas: You also recommend that people get media partners. So talk about how that works.

Linda: You approach them the same as you approach your cash sponsors. So, uh, with a media partner, you're going to send the same proposal to them. Uh, but the media is a little bit different because they do, what's called an in kind sponsorship. Now with an in kind sponsorship. It's a trading of benefits and services. No money changes hands, but they give you a whole lot of value. And it is budget relieving. I had a radio station that was a partner of mine that gave me all kinds of stuff. They gave me 30 second and 60 second commercials and a sponsor spotlight. And, and I was up on their website and you know, it was great because I think they had like a listenership of 75,000 people. Uh, and it is budget relieving because it was probably a $25,000 program. Not a dime came out of my pocket. One day I was driving and I heard my own commercial. That was really surreal. I almost crashed the car, but it was okay. Um, but that's how you get media partners.

And I want to talk a little bit about virtual events. Cause a lot of people have been asking me about that. So sponsors will fund a virtual event, but you have to offer them a bigger benefit package. Uh, you don't want to just show their logo, uh, at your virtual event, you want to offer them yearlong benefits, uh, for that event. Uh, and you know, you want to offer a virtual event bag. You want to offer like all of these goodies post-marketing okay. So for an event, there's three phases. There's, pre-marketing, there's a marketing during that event and then there's post event marketing. So the post event sponsorship is after the events over say, "Hey, thanks so much for being on our virtual event. And here's some goodies from our sponsors. We want you to check out." Uh, so you've got to make a pretty complete program for virtual.

And the best combination is a virtual event followed by a live event. And I'll tell you why, because the virtual event, you can promote the live event. Uh, and you know, it's kind of a one, two punch. Because a lot of people are going strictly virtual. It's not as valuable to sponsors unless you have the virtual and the live. If you can only do virtual. Great, but tell them that some point in the future, you want to talk about a live event, you know, whether it happens or not.

Passionistas: And how do people determine the other benefits that they, they have to offer a sponsor?

Linda: It's a real simple answer. You want to ask your sponsor. So the first conversation that you have with your sponsor is a fact finding expedition. You want to make them open up to you. You want to say, Hey, what are your marketing goals? How can I help you achieve them? What are your demographics? What are your upcoming campaigns? When I got FedEx as a sponsor, that's what I did. I talked to him and I said, well, what are you looking for? And you know, he said, well, we don't want a trade show booth. We don't want banners. We don't want signage. And that's what people, most people think sponsorship is. He said, everybody knows FedEx. If we have a trade show booth, they just pick up the little freebies that we have at the booth. And signage does nothing. We want to tell women business owners that we're not the expensive white glove delivery service. And we're very comparable with ups is their, their major competition.

Um, so they wanted a speaking opportunity. They wanted an untoward presentation. They wanted press releases. So if I had come to him and said, okay, we're going to offer you a trade show booth and some signage I never would have worked with FedEx. I delved in. And before I went into my presentation, I made sure that I wanted to find out what he wanted and then offer some brilliant solutions. And then the happy ending to that story is that they sponsored me for four years because we were so attentive to what they wanted.

Passionistas: How do people use research to strengthen their offering to a sponsor?

Linda: It is so much easier now than it ever was before you could do your research very, very quickly. Uh, Google is my best friend and it's probably yours. So you're going to Google the company that you want to be your sponsor. You're going to see their website on their website. You look at their press room. The press room is kind of an interesting thing because it shows how they message the company. It shows the articles about the company. It shows how they want you to perceive their brand. You're going to look at the about us section and then the, the investor relations section.

But don't just stop at the website, go to their social media, too, and see what kind of posts they put out there and tweets and see, you know, what's going on on their social media, but I'm telling you, you could do this really, really quickly. Um, and that's the best way to do research about the company. And when you talk to the sponsors, they want to know, they want to know that you've done the research because that means that you are respecting their time. So if they've got a certain program out there, say, "Hey, I see you're promoting this particular program." And they love that. They love when you show that you've really done your homework.

Passionistas: So now here's the big question. How do people know how much to ask for?

Linda: Oh, this is my favorite. This is my favorite one. Because most people, like I said, no, tortuously undercharge. And then women have a hard time charging a lot of money. So, um, here's what most of our clients get from their sponsors. $10,000, $25,000, $50,000 and a $100,000. Now that is per year and renewable. So let me talk to you about renewals, because remember when I told you that FedEx, uh, you know, sponsored me for four years, that is your, your cash machine is the renewals. If a sponsor likes you, they can sponsor you this year and the next year and the next year. So that's renewables, which are absolutely delicious. And I had a multi-year contracts and renewals with Citibank too. And my clients have had renewals with the Verizon and Dole foods and Black and Decker, just to name a few.

Uh, so those are, remember yearly benefits if you're doing an event, okay, don't go event by event because that's how I did it at first. And I realized I was being stupid because I could get a lot more money if I give them benefits for the whole year. Um, and if you do a few events a year bundle the events, even the virtual events, and by the way, semantics are important. So call it a virtual event. Don't call it a webinar. Don't call it Facebook live, you know, because people really expect those things are free. So call it a virtual event if that's what you're doing.

Passionistas: What did your mother teach you about women's roles in society when you were growing up?

Linda: Oh my God, my mom and I are so different. My mom, when she got married, uh, she worked for a while, but you know, she was a stay at home mom and, you know, she was really, really good at it. Um, and, uh, the only thing was that she was completely dependent on my father. And I saw that growing up and I said, you know what, it's good for their marriage, but it's not how I want my marriage to be. I don't want to be dependent on anybody. And I am. That's kind of what made me very fiercely independent, uh, was seeing my mom. Now, my mom influenced me in some really good ways. Uh, she's an artist and that's where I got my at my art from, and my love of art, my love of beauty, because she had that. And if I have any compassion, if I have any humanity, uh, it is from my mother. And I think the more creative you are, the more successful you are in business. So all of those things, creativity and compassion were gifts from my mother.

Passionistas: What's your dream for women?

Linda: My dream for women is that we can all respect each other's choices. I told you about my mom and how she chose to be a stay at home. Mom. I respect that. You know, I don't think, you know, people like that are any less than the woman who goes out and works every day and need to be even makes more than her husband and is the, the, the breadwinner for the family. So I think that's where we're moving as women is, you know, just to have good choices.

And that's why I'm such a proponent of entrepreneurship because entrepreneurship helps you make good choices. Uh, Oprah Winfrey, you know, she doesn't have to worry about money. She doesn't have to worry about paying the bills so she can work on having schools in Africa and really affecting world change. And it's the same with Melinda Gates and Bill Gates. You know, they don't have to worry about paying their bills every month so they can work on things of a higher nature. And Sara Blakely, two of Spanx who I've talked to. Uh, so that's where I see women's the trajectory of women's success going.

Passionistas: Do you think that there's a particular trait that has helped you be successful?

Linda: Tenacity. Uh, because you know, um, this is your business. If you can't go through the front door, go through the side window, that's kinda been, uh, my definition of success, uh, you know, and do whatever you can to be successful because it's not just for you, it's for all the people that you're going to help. I mean, you have gifts to give to the world. And if you deny people those gifts, that's the ultimate act of selfishness. Cause I'm not even an outgoing person. I'm very introverted, very shy by nature. And that's what somebody told me. They said, you know, I see you go to a party or an event. You don't really talk to people and you're being selfish because you're denying them all the gifts that you have that can help them. So don't think of it as just for you. Think of it. As you know, for transforming the world. When I was doing the women's small business expo, women met their perfect business partners there, and women got the pieces of the puzzle that they needed to create their own multi-million dollar businesses. And on my deathbed, I will be so proud of the work that I did. And it was all because of sponsors.

Passionistas: Linda, you mentioned to us that you wanted to make an offer to our listeners.

Linda: I want to give a gift to the listeners. They can get the number one secret to getting sponsors. If they go to SuccessWithSponsors.com. So it's SuccessWithSponsors.com. Also, if you go to SuccessWithSponsors.com, you can make an appointment to talk with me personally, I do free sponsor strategy sessions. So I will look at what you're doing. We'll work on your winning proposal and we'll work on your success strategy for getting your sponsors.

Passionistas: And seriously, ladies, if you are listening to this and you are even remotely considering whether to do this or not do it, we cannot recommend Linda strongly enough. She is amazing. She's absolutely amazing.

Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Linda Hollander. To learn more about Linda and to receive your free gift, go to SuccessWithSponsors.com.

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Gina Fattore Is Writing About Overcoming Anxiety and Becoming Unfrozen

Gina Fattore is a television writer and producer turned novelist who just released her debut book The Spinster Diaries. The story centers around a writer, obsessed with chick lit, who is overcoming her anxiety to become unfrozen and have enough hope to move forward. Gina's TV credits include Dare Me, Better Things, UnREAL, Masters of Sex, Parenthood, Californication, Gilmore Girls and Dawson’s Creek.

Learn more about Gina.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

Full Transcript:

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Gina Fattore. Gina is a television writer whose credits include, Dare Me, Better Things, Unreal, Masters of Sex, Parenthood, Californication, Gilmore Girls and Dawson's Creek. Her Ted X talk become what you believe has more than 16,000 views in her essays, reviews and comedy pieces have appeared to the Chicago reader, entertainment weekly salon, the millions and Mick Sweeney's internet tendency, and she just published her debut novel, The Spinster Diaries, a semi-autobiographical story, but a TV writer obsessed with chick lit. So please welcome to the show. Gina Fattore.

Gina Fattore: Thank you so much for having me here. It's an honor… to be considered a Passionista is a big honor. Thank you.

Passionistas: And we're excited to have you. We love the book and you have written some of our favorite television shows, so we can't wait to talk to you.

What's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Gina Fattore: My gut said to say writing, but maybe I need to be more specific than that because I write so many things, but it's always been writing. I am one of those people who I was 11, 10 or 11 when I, you know, first got, I guess praised for my writing. I went to the young authors conference when I was in the fifth grade with my first book, which, you know, remains unpublished because everyone's fifth grade book should probably remain unpublished. Um, but, uh, yeah, and I just, I always knew it's, it's the weirdest thing. It, it, I had a friend once say to me, a college friend who just, she called it a calling and especially when we had just graduated from college, and I believe everybody should sort of wander in their twenties until they land on the thing that is right for them. But I always had in the back of my mind, this idea of the calling, and I knew it was about writing.

Passionistas: Talk about that path from that fifth grade book to becoming a television writer.

Gina Fattore: (LAUGHING) Yeah. That was kind of a long journey. There aren't a lot of 11 year old television writers. I grew up in Indiana in this town called Valparaiso, which is in the part of Indiana. That's, it's like the Northwest corner of Indiana that's actually closer to Chicago than Indianapolis, but still like a small town, uh, sort of Friday Night Lights kind of place where people go to the football game or the basketball game every Friday night. And I was always that, you know, high school journalist person, you know, I did the yearbook, I did the newspaper, I did it all and I had this scheme or this plan that involved going to Columbia, which uh, was a funny thing in Indiana because nobody in Indiana actually knows what Columbia is. I know it's like this impressive school. It's in the Ivy league, but there's a lot of confusion with the university of Missouri at Columbia.

So it's, it costs a lot of money and it's difficult to impress people. But somehow I got it and my parents were on board with this and I moved to New York and at 18 as all Columbia freshmen do and I was an English major. I always knew I was going to be an English major. There wasn't a film studies or film major or anything like that available to undergraduates at Columbia. When I was there and I, I wouldn't have, I don't know that I would've wanted to do that anyway. It really did not occur to me that writing was screenwriting. I loved TV, I loved movies, but I really hadn't thought of it that way. It was all books and magazines and journalism to me. And then the accident that changed my life. When I graduated from Columbia, I was an English major, as I said, totally unqualified to really do anything in the world.

And I started applying for jobs at different places. And the one that I ended up getting was at the New York public library in the fundraising office. And I worked in major gifts and planned giving. I answered the phone, you know, we did research on the various donors we were trying to get money from. We would hold parties and events and my boss was this lovely, lovely woman named Judy Daniels and her son is a television writer. His name is Greg Daniels, and he created The Office, the American version of The Office and Parks and Rec and King of the Hill. And Judy Daniels, I always say was my first agent. She essentially said to me, I think you should move to LA and work for my son and he should help you be a TV writer. And he did and I became a TV writer. I was his assistant for two years when he was starting King of the Hill with Mike Judge back in the mid-nineties and that was how I got my start.

He assigned me a freelance episode in the second season, which is a very traditional way for TV writer to get a break as you get to write one episode of a show. And based on that I was able to get an agent and the agent helped me get my first real job as a staff writer. You know, when I didn't have to answer the phone anymore. That was the biggest victory of my professional life.

Passionistas: That's a pretty impressive person to land without in LA. Did you learn anything specific from him that sticks with you?

Gina Fattore: The thing that sticks with me the most is always about story. You know, Greg is a comedy writer and you know, even before King of the Hill, he had worked on the Simpsons and on Saturday night live, but he was incredibly rigorous about story. So maybe it's not an accident that you know, I ended up being a drama writer more than a comedy writer, but I can remember him saying to me, you know about my own spec scripts and I was trying to write at the time, you know, to just make a beat sheet and go through every scene and you know, just ask yourself very, what is this scene doing?

And if you can't summarize it in, you know, one short sentence with a sort of active sounding verb in it, then there's probably a problem with that scene. And that's advice that he gave me that I think about 20 years later all the time.

Passionistas: Your book, The Spinster Diaries, is a semi-autobiographical story about being a TV writer. And I think it paints a really good picture of the fact that even though people may think it's a really glamorous life, it's a lot of hard work and not only the work itself but going from show to show, getting jobs is hard work. So can you talk a little bit about your experiences in Hollywood, some of the shows you worked on and what that lifestyle is like?

Gina Fattore: I would say to start that, that is one of the revelations that people have read my book and come back to me and said, this actually explains what it's like to be a TV writer. And that wasn't one of the reasons why I wrote the book, but it's just the world that I live in. So I was portraying it really accurately. And many TV writers have actually said this to me that like this is almost given them flashbacks and stuff in weird ways because the system of TV has changed a lot. The book has said it actually in 2006 which was a time when there were a lot more network TV shows and a lot more shows where we would make 22-23 episodes a year, which is the system that I started in. And nowadays we have these really short orders for shows, which has made it even more pronounced.

This nature of the job is insecurity and you know, you move from one thing to the next. I've been on many shows. I had to run and vibing three shows in a row that got canceled within those first 12 you know, so sometimes you make all 12 and you get paid for all 12 but one show we got canceled. You know, we were actually shooting episode eight and I don't think we finished shooting the rest of those. You know, you just stop when you're canceled. Everything just stops. I mean we're living through this weird moment now with production shutdowns for the virus reasons, but being canceled. It's odd. Cause I mean the great part about it is that everybody's in it together. But that's also the horrible part is that, you know, 200 people have lost their jobs in one day. But the funny thing about being on a show is that it is sort of more like a real job than I think people anticipate because there's this idea about movie writers, which is true that they kind of like sit by their pool or they're like in a cafe somewhere writing and you know, TV writers.

Honestly, I think in some ways we're more like journalists. Like we have a deadline, we're working together to put something out. And sometimes I think that because I worked at a newspaper in my twenties I worked at an alternative weekly newspaper. Maybe that's why I view it that way, but it is what it is. You know, if you're making 23 episodes of a show, everybody has to be on board with what are those episodes about? So a large part of what we're doing when we're writing a TV show is just making sure that there's one story that we're telling that all the characters are behaving consistently. And the writer's room, which back in the day when I started was standard. Not all shows are written that way anymore, but that was what allowed us to just stay on the same page and we had to be flexible.

And of course the showrunner had ultimate control over what the story would be. And so your job as a writer is just to spend all day thinking of pitches that will support what the story is. And there was one year I remember on Dawson's Creek, I season five I only wrote like two episodes and normally I would write first drafts more than that and I missed it. And I realized when you're in the room coming up with ideas, 80% of what you do gets rejected and that's a really high rate to, you know, keep yourself going at where you have to just keep pitching ideas and they might not be accepted. It's heartbreaking. So you have to have a pretty thick skin for that. How do you develop that thick skin? How do you not take it personally? I think you just said the exact phrase, which is not taking it personally.

And I think it did take me a really long time. I think season three when I was working on Dawson's Creek was my first real immersion in one hour drama writing. And again that was a 23 episode season, which I don't know that I had done one of those yet. And I would use all these little tricks. Sometimes I would tell myself, you know, you're writing the first draft for free. The first draft is what you want it to be. It's all this stuff. What they're paying you for is the 10 offer drafts that you're doing, where people are saying, do it my way, do it my way, do it my way. And early on in my career I had this great moment with a friend who, he's a graphic designer and at the time he was maybe working at the New York times or something like that, but his own work as a graphic designer was constantly being, you know, noted and all this stuff like do it again and do it again. Do it again.

And you know, it just becomes not what the person wanted and you just have to tell yourself over and over again that mantra I think because it's just not what they wanted. And when you're writing something for money, that's what your job is, is to give the person what they wanted. And in TV it's always very clear that person is the showrunner. And then once they're happy with it, they got to go and deal with the network and the studio. There's a whole other level of people who might not be happy with it.

Passionistas: As a writer that's not the showrunner, you're kind of shielded from having those conversations. But last season you developed and executive produced and wrote the TV series Dare Me. So talk about how you became the showrunner of and what it was like to be in that position versus on staff.

Gina Fattore:  It was kind of amazing to get to this place where this pilot that I had written with Meghan Abbott, based on her novel Dare Me, we made a pilot in the summer of 2018 really it was when we made the pilot and then all of 2019 was when we were making the, the nine additional episodes. And here I was finally doing this job that we, for a long time I had basically resigned myself to the idea that none of my pilots would ever proceed forward and become serious cause I had written so many of them and I knew how hard the job was. I mean frankly I was the showrunners assistant. So who knows better than the showrunners assistant, how hard the job is. And so I think what happens in TV a lot of times is that the person who becomes the showrunner is perhaps a novelist or a playwright or a screenwriter.

Especially if you win an Oscar, they will just basically give you a TV show. So essentially that person is really overwhelmed just by the sheer idea of what it means to be a showrunner, which is that you're not just a writer anymore, you're a producer and you're the boss who's hiring everyone and who's also responsible for making sure that everyone's working well together to actualize the vision that you have in your head. So in a funny way, I have to say, I knew it was going to be hard, so it was hard, but it wasn't as hard, I don't think, as it would have been for someone who hadn't been working on TV shows for essentially 20 years at that point. I mean, I like to joke, and this is terrible, but I was like, you know, like the American presidency running a television show, it is a job that sometimes goes to someone who's never done it before, but sometimes that person has actually been the secretary of state, or sometimes they've been the first lady, maybe they've been a Senator, so that person might have a better idea of how this whole thing works than someone who's never worked in government before.

And that's how I felt. I felt like I was that person and I ended up being so proud of the work itself. The episodes I think are brilliant, but also just really proud of all the people who told me how much they enjoyed working on the show. I mean, honestly, the costume designer, the, you know, the cinematographer, like all of the directors, like just knowing that they felt like they were in an environment where they were being heard and appreciated even when their ideas were rejected meant so much to me. Because looking back, I can see there were many jobs where I didn't have that and that was the hard part to keep going. When you don't feel like you're being heard, it's one thing to be rejected, but it's another to be sort of ignored or dismissed.

Passionistas: You're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Gina Fattore. Visit GinaFattore.com to find out more about Gina and her book, The Spinster Diaries, now available at IndieBound, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and more.

Now here's more of our interview with Gina.

Talk about The Spinster Diaries and why did you decide with your busy television schedule, why did you decide to write a book?

Gina Fattore: Well, you know, I realized, I think I already set this up because I talked a little about the frustrations of being a writer who is on staff on a show, but you're not the boss. And at the time I started writing the book, I really did start writing the book around the time that it set. So like 2006, 2007 and I had been working on shows at that point, well, you know, I guess about eight years. So I was at the point where I was doing this job that was a dream job to me. And you know, it, it, I had far exceeded any dreams that I had, you know, as a young person in Indiana, I was living in LA and I was going from job to job, but definitely, you know, uh, making money and working with interesting people and it was all great.

But the one thing I didn't have was any kind of control over what story was being told. I mean you're always rewritten when you're a writer on staff. Like it's very, very rare. When I was working on Dawson's Creek, I was genuinely, I don't know, I had been there for so long that by the time we got to the end, those were my episodes. Those were my words. Like especially the last one that I wrote, I did all the rewriting on them. They're my work, but that's very unusual. The more usual way is to just write and contribute, but you never have any say over the final product. And so I think I just started writing pros because it was, first of all, it was what I originally wrote when I was a young person and I was a high school newspaper editor and all of that.

But also just because I knew I could control it and I didn't even know at first what I was writing. I think I really was just writing, you know, on the weekends I'd just be like, well, I have something I need to say. And then I just kept writing and went on this journey and it really did take me a very long time to get someone to publish the book essentially because it is a little unconventional. I think they were fooled by the opening of the book and they thought that it would be more of a conventional Bridget Jones's diary type book and then suddenly they're reading about this woman from the 18th century, like it's about TV writing and they think, I think that there was some confusion about what the book was, but I really persevered because I knew at that point I was like, well, I have my other job, which I never quit, which is my day job writing and producing television and I know that I'm good at that.

Um, especially it's no small part of it is the producing part. Like that's a completely separate skill from writing. And now that I've done Dare Me and been a showrunner, I've done that on every level. So I figured my book didn't have to be something that was going to be a bestseller or a big source of income for me. I could just make it whatever I wanted to be. Just be playful with it and have fun.

Passionistas: You say that it's some I autobiographical. So how much of it is based on you? Obviously the TV writing part is.

Gina Fattore: Yeah, I'm laughing because like I really wanted to be one of those fancy novelists who's all like, ah, I made it all up, or whatever. That's what fiction writers do. But it's all, it's all true. Basically. Like all of it. It's true. I was interested in the idea of biography and autobiography.

So if the narrator of my book is sort of this exaggerated unreliable version of me, and she's telling you a story though about this other writer from the 18th century, so how reliable is she? But if you read the book, I should make a disclaimer that it is actually a biography of the writer from the 18th century whose name is Francis Barney, and she was a novelist who wrote at the end of the 18th century. She's really the person who inspired Jane Austin in many ways. Her books were read by Jane Austin and Jane Jane Austin makes reference to Francis. Bernie's novels at like six different places within her own work.

Passionistas: Why are you fascinated with Frances Burney and why did she become such a central character in the book?

Gina Fattore: I was just talking about this with someone who I know from college because I did read Frances Burney for the first time when I was in college. I was an English major at Columbia. There was, I think looking back, I've now researched this like in the, in the eighties the feminist scholars in the English departments all over the country were looking for female writers, you know, trying to resuscitate them. And at the end of the 18th century was a time in England when there were actually quite a number of female novelists. And so I read her work and then it, but it wasn't in college. It was like later in my twenties I learned about her diaries. She kept them her entire life. They've, they've finally finished editing all of them and they are 24 volumes long. So it was really like a blog. I mean, I think when I first read her diaries, I didn't even know what a blog was. It was probably like 95 but it was like you're hearing the unfiltered voice of this woman who lived, I mean, she actually lived from 1752 to 1840 but the time period in her life that would most fascinated me was sort of, you know, her coming of age and her first novel was written when she was 25 and I think when I, the more I learned about her story, it was something that captured my imagination when I was that age in my mid-twenties and I knew I wanted to be a writer, but I didn't know how I was going to get there.

I mean, I think it was even before I started working for Greg Daniels, I was 27 when I actually moved to LA and started working for him and ultimately became a TV writer. But all those years of my twenties I knew I wanted to be a writer and I was writing. But you know, you don't, you have a day job, you know, it's hard. You don't know really what you should be writing and what's the right format for your voice. And all those things. And I just kept reading about her more and more. And I was always just so convinced that there was something very modern about her life. Also in that anytime we hear about women from that era, they're generally very wealthy women. And so the stories, while they're these sort of odd princess stories about like duchesses and ladies and all that stuff, or think of Downton Abbey, right?

Those three sisters are incredibly wealthy and aristocratic. And for instance, Bernie, her father was a music teacher, so she was the equivalent of what we would think of as middle class. And for me growing up, you know, as I mentioned, I grew up in Indiana, so I am not from aristocrats, let's just say, um, my grandparents are all from Italy. So yeah, I think I, I love this idea of a role model who had, you know, been a writer from the time she was in her teens. And also looking back, I can see where I think like maybe a role model who isn't, you know, isn't Jane Austin or George Elliot or the Bronte sisters is a little better. At least for me it felt better. Like I feel like there's the people who you admire so much that it kind of stops you.

You know, like I've had that feeling before where you watch your all-time favorite movie, are you, you know, read your all-time favorite book for the zillion with time and there's a part of you that thinks I could never achieve that or I could never do that. Whereas I don't know. There was something about Frances Burney as a role model that I guess made me think, you know, she just did her best and kept writing and that's what you need to hear. Especially when you're 25 and you're just starting on your journey.

Passionistas: What do you hope readers take away from reading the book?

Gina Fattore: I've already gotten some feedback from people from what they did take away and it's been surprising, I guess I would say in a big way. I realized that the book is about anxiety and so it's very odd that it's coming out at this time where everybody is, you know, really just swimming and anxiety because anxiety is different than fear, you know, fear.

The idea is that fear is like there's a lion about to come and eat you and you know what that is and you need to respond to what the lion that's directly in front of you. But anxiety is that more free floating feeling. I at a certain point, I did realize that like years ago, like years, you know, years before it was published, I thought, Oh, the book is really about anxiety and that's a valuable lesson right now. And also the journey of the character she goes on is about like just getting out of a paralysis and the paralysis is sort of, you know, people always talk about fight or flight, right? That idea that if you're in this stressful situation, either you'll lash out and you'll fight or you're flee, but the other thing you do is you just freeze. And that's a very real reaction.

I mean I, I don't think I'm making that up. I think there is actual psychology to base that on, but it's always been my personal experience that you get frozen and the character is frozen. So the journey of the book is really to become unfrozen and to have enough hope to move forward. And I think that is a really vital message at this time.

Passionistas: Is there a lesson that you've learned on your journey that really sticks with you?

Gina Fattore: I was just thinking about this, like the idea of this journey cause I was talking, the thing that's been so great to talk to old friends and this time, you know, like there's, there's just been a little more of that. Like people reaching out, like high school friends, college friends, like let's do a zoom. And it was making me think about my younger days and I had this sense when I was very young, that little things made an enormous difference.

I mean that a little bit in terms of writing, you know, that like precision and detail and all that stuff. Um, but also just, I don't know, this idea that things could change in an instant or that everything was kind of on a Razor's edge. And I think just what I learned this past two years in being the boss and making a show is that idea that not everything has to be perfect. And you think I would have known that earlier in life because as anyone who a writer knows, there's always a rough draft. There's always a first draft and it's a process to make it better. But I think this is a particular problem for women, which is this idea of perfectionism and how it holds you back because you're not willing to do the sloppy version of something.

And one of the coolest things I learned when I was making the show was I was like, I've been doing this for so long. TV is a process and the process is not, you start with the thing that the people see when it's on TV streaming. You know, you start so far back from that, you know, you start with some note cards on a board, you know, you turn that into an outline, you turn that into a script. There's so many steps of the process and being the boss and doing that really made me remember that, that like you have so many other chances to, to do that, that thing and to make it right. You know, not that it's not important to meet your deadlines and be conscientious and all that stuff, but I do wish I had felt that a little more when I was younger. Just let yourself be wrong.

Passionistas: What's your definition of success?

Gina Fattore:  I guess in some way I do think it's, it's liking what you do for work because we all, almost all of us have to work. And uh, even people who don't have to work for financial reasons, you know, I guess that's the famous Freud quote, write about love and work. And I mean, my had a next door neighbor who lived next door to me for 10 years. Ever since I bought my house, my neighbor next door, he was elderly. He was 79 when I moved in and he passed away at 89 and he worked like three or four days a week at this job up until he was like 87 and the minute he wasn't able to work anymore, he just shut down and you could see it so clearly. And he got so depressed and he, this is a person of like, you know, the world war II generation practically. He, well, Korean war I guess is the one he fought in and people like that don't use the word depressed lightly, you know?

And, and I could see that in him and I feel like it makes me so happy. You know, when people talk to me about their job and you can see that they're suited to the job and they get some kind of reward back from it, I think that is just a huge part of being successful in life.

Passionistas: What advice would you give to a young woman who wants to be a writer?

Gina Fattore: Sadly, right? Is the only advice that, I mean, I know there's all this stuff about, you know, uh, I don't know, networking. And there's a lot of classes now you can take and stuff like that. But you learn, you do learn by doing and you know, I think you just need to keep writing and that everything you write, you learn something from that. And you know the feedback. Showing it to other people honestly is the hard part.

That to me is, is harder than the writing. I know some people have a problem with that, but you know, that's where the introverts win because the part of the job where you are alone in the room with the piece of paper, that doesn't scare me. And I think that it's got the main benefit of you can control it. You can try things out, you know, I mean, Oh, this is terrible. But like when I started, I had a typewriter in college. Like you had to do the whiteout, you know, you had to do all that stuff. Like nowadays, whatever, just try something and if it doesn't work, you know, uh, I was going to say delete, but don't delete, just save it and another file. You might need it again someday.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to our interview with Gina Fattore. Visit GinaFattore.com to find out more about Gina and her book, The Spinster Diaries now available at IndieBound, Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and more.

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