The Passionistas Project Podcast

Hannah Gordon Brings Her Passion for People to the NFL

Hannah Gordon is one of the highest ranking female executives in the NFL as Chief Administrative Officer and General Counsel of the San Francisco 49ers. On Sunday, February 2, her team will go head-to-head against the Kansas City Chiefs in Miami, Florida with the hopes of taking home their sixth Super Bowl championship. Over almost nine years with the Niners, Hannah has taken on initiatives like diversity in hiring, and fan clubs for both female fans and the LGBT community.

Learn more about Hanna.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to the Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington, and today we're talking with Hannah Gordon, one of the highest ranking female executives in the NFL. Hannah is chief administrative officer and general counsel of the San Francisco 49ers. And on Sunday, February 2nd, her team will go head to head against the Kansas city chiefs in Miami, Florida with the hopes of taking home their six championship in the Super Bowl. So please welcome to the show, Hannah Gordon.

Hannah: Thank you ladies for having me on.

Passionistas: What's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Hannah: People. I mean, I guess that's kind of a big answer, but if I had to pick one thing to be passionate about, it would be people. And that's why I do what I do because I love working with people and I like observing people.

Passionistas: So how does that translate into what you do?

Hannah: Well, the great thing about what I do is I get to work with every person at the 49ers pretty much every sort of group. And that ranges from our players to our janitorial staff, to our engineers in the stadium, to our sales groups to the groups that I lead, which would be community relations, the foundation, youth football, the museum, risk management, legal, public affairs and strategic communications. And so I think both the experience of leading a team as well as the experience of getting to work with a lot of different people who come from different sort of subcultures. I think oftentimes if you come from a certain type of work. So for example, I worked for a law firm early in my career and in a law firm you kind of have mostly one type of person, lawyers. And it's much more interesting to be on the world where there's lots of different types of people.

Passionistas: Were you a football fan growing up?

Hannah: No, I was not. I was a fan of Barbie dolls and fashion and I thought I would grow up to be a costume designer or something of that nature. And then I discovered that I didn't have a lot of patience for sewing, which sewing requires a lot of patience. And I also wasn't happy with my skills artistically. And so I started focusing more on things like journalism. And when I got to UCLA where I went for undergrad after growing up in Oakland, I really fell in love with sports there. So that was for me, kind of the beginning of me falling in love with football was just being there. I was quite homesick and started watching a ton of football and basketball on television and it was really seeing Hannah Storm host the halftime during the NBA playoffs my freshman year, that I thought, Oh, you know what, that looks like a really cool job. People connection again, you know, you get to sit around with people and talk about sports. And that seems really cool. How do I learn more about that? And so that's how I kind of got into journalism at UCLA and covered the football team there. And once I was in football, then, you know, it was over for me.

Passionistas: Talk about that journey from it being over for you to getting to the 49ers.

Hannah: From UCLA falling in love with football. I had to figure out, all right, how do I stay in this? After I graduated from college? So I started doing internships. I interned my junior year for the Oakland Raiders as a PR intern and that was my first Super Bowl. Um, so this is actually my third Super Bowl that I'm going to. I was very blessed that I was a training camp intern for them, but because I was from Oakland, I would come home on holidays or long weekends and work for them. And then when they made it to the Super Bowl, the Super Bowl was in San Diego and this was back when there was no Pro Bowl was an in between. So there was only a week between when you won the conference championship and you had to play in the Super Bowl. And so they won the AFC championship and they called me and they said, get in the car, drive to San Diego.

And I said, Oh my gosh, but I have class tomorrow. It's the Super Bowl get in the car. So I worked that week. and it was a great experience. It didn't end, obviously the way that we wanted to, but but it was an incredible experience and I did a lot of other internships. I interned for Fox sports West. After I graduated from college, I worked at the NFL players association, which is the players union, creating digital content for their website at a time when people were really just starting to figure out what digital content was. I don't even think we called it digital content though. We just called it the websit, but, but it was creating a lot of new content that they had never had before. From what I called at that time player journals, which were sort of what we would now maybe think of as like an equivalent of like social media or a blog or a vlog type of situation, to a DJ contest.

I did players of the week awards and after I'm working there, I went to the university of California at Berkeley where I worked in their media relations department. And handled football, track and swimming. And then while I was there, I applied to law schools and after I got into law school, I decided to take six months to go work at a sports agency. For those of you who remember the movie Jerry McGuire, I was sort of, exploring that route of being a sports agent. And then I started law school at Stanford and while I was at Stanford, I went back to the Oakland Raiders as a law clerk. Then I worked after law school as a lawyer at a law firm. And then I ended up at the NFL league office in New York for a couple of years. And from there I was recruited to come to the 49ers and this is now the conclusion of ninth season here.

Passionistas: So were there a lot of opportunities for women at the time when you first joined the 49ers?

Hannah: I would say yes, when I joined the 49ers cause it's only eight and a half years ago. Those things have, I've seen a lot of change even in the last eight and a half years. I was talking to a young woman who's the girlfriend of one of our players who's currently in law school, and who has some interest in sports agent work. And we were talking about, you know, early in my career, 15 plus years ago, and she was like, "Ooh, they weren't ready for you back then." And I started to laugh because I forget. I think it's very easy to forget when it's our own life, sort of how much things have changed and how historical that is to young people. I'm like, to me, I was like, Oh wait, I forgot. That's actually a long time ago. Um, and things really have changed.

But from her perspective, I also really appreciated that she had a lot of appreciation for people who came before her helping make that path, hopefully that much easier. So yeah, there has been a lot of change in the last 20 years that I have worked in the business. And, and probably the most rapid change at least in a visible way in certain parts of the business in the last five years, but that doesn't mean there's not still a long way to go. No different I think than every other industry in the United States where the, the area where there still needs to be progress is primarily at the very top. You're not seeing a lot of women in C-suite positions or most importantly in president, CEO type positions. But that's the case whether you're looking at tech or sports or pretty much anything.

Passionistas: One position that is making the news a lot right now is Katie Sowers, who's the assistant coach and the first female assistant coach to go to a Super Bowl. Do you have a lot of interaction with her?

Hannah: I do. I'm very proud of her. She's an awesome person. And when I was referencing that there's been rapid progress in the last five years in certain sectors. The business, that's really what I was referring to is the, the um, pipeline positions in the football side is where you've seen the most dramatic change in the last five years. And that's really because of a concerted effort to create that change league wide. And so you are seeing like for our club, when I started, almost nine years ago, there were no women in coaching scouting or athletic training roles. And five years ago we hired our first female athletic trainer and since she's been here, not only has she been just an incredible person for everyone to work with, but it opens more doors where ever since she's been here. We've had a full season female athletic training intern and at least one often to training camp, athletic training interns.

So again, creating more, more opportunity. And I think, you know, as the great job that she did that helps open the door. Then they, Katie joined us, I believe three seasons ago. And then two seasons ago we hired our first female scout. So we've seen in some of the roles that are not football roles, but are certainly, um, more adjacent to that part of the business, some growth as well. We have, we hired our first, um, on-staff female team photographer, uh, also about three seasons ago. And similar roles in terms of like team reporter and things of that nature.

Passionistas: And the 49ers is the first team in the NFL to commit to interviewing at least one woman inand one person of color for every business opening. And you've been a big part of that initiative. So why is that important to you personally?

Hannah: Well, I think it's important as a business that you have the best people. This is still a talent based, not only industry, but I would think pretty much any business business you're running, talent is, is at a premium and you're not going to get the best talent if you don't overcome people's unconscious bias. And so I was actually just talking with our Executive Vice President of Operations and President of 49ers Enterprises, Paraag Marathe who recruited me to come here. And I was saying that I still to this day often explain the business case for diversity to people in the same terms that he explained it to me many years ago, which is that it's really an arbitrage opportunity. So essentially you have a economic system that is not working rationally, which means if you are rational and recognize that there's a diversity gap, then you're able to actually get better talent than other people have because you're finding the talent that has been overlooked. And Paraag is actually being honored next week just before Super Bowl by the Fritz Pollard Alliance as their salute to excellence award winner for the year. So very, very happy for him.

Passionistas: So now you've risen through the ranks over the last eight and a half years. So tell us how your position has evolved with the team and your current responsibilities.

Hannah: I think the big change for me was learning how to go from being an individual contributor to being a team leader. That was a big, big shift in his daily responsibilities, and so starting out in purely a legal role and really as that individual contributor. I think one of the things that made a big difference to me was I was having trouble agreeing that I should be hiring more people to help before I started adopting other departments. Um, and somebody sat me down and was like, Hannah, you are never going to be able to grow as long as you always think you have to do everything yourself, like you have to learn to delegate. And that really, that really helped me, that really me see things in a new light. And once I learned to do that, it allowed me to keep growing and be able to take on more and more because there is, you know, only so many hours in a day. There's only so much one person can do. If you're focused on doing the work yourself

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Hannah Gordon. Don't forget to tune into the Super Bowl on February 2nd at 6:30 PM Eastern 3:30 PM Pacific on Fox when the San Francisco 49ers take on the Kansas City Chiefs. Now here's more of our interview with Hannah.

You also oversee fan groups like women of the Niners and 49ers Pride for the LGBTQ fans. So talk about those initiatives and why, again, why they're important to you.

Hannah: I'll start with 49ers pride, which is our newest fan engagement program. That is a program that's as you noted for our LGBTQ plus fans, but also for our allies. So it's not just for one type of person. Cause I think one of the things that really resonates with our fans is that we recognize that they look to see their values reflected in us. And I think as the team of the San Francisco Bay area, we very much do reflect the progressive values of this region. And so for us it was really natural to see, okay, where is there a part of our fan demographic that maybe historically hasn't been focused on or served in, in the overall experience of sports in America in the same way. Not that they weren't necessarily, enjoying being 49ers, but how can we even elevate that experience and create more community.

And so we launched 49ers Pride at a town hall that we did with the San Jose State Institute for the study of sport society and social change. And we had an incredible discussion around a lot of issues of gender identity and LGBTQ plus activism in sport there. And then we launched this fan engagement platform and the response was really overwhelming. The, the videos we received from people in tears just saying how much it meant to them that they'd been 49ers fans for their whole lives, that they'd never felt excluded by the 49ers but they also now really felt included in a way that they'd never felt before. And there was just overwhelming, like response on social media and emails and so many other things. We had over a thousand people sign up and that first week and we followed that up within in June, marching in the San Francisco pride parade. We had over 150 employees, family members, fans, all part of our float and had just the best time, so much fun.

And then this fall we did another event, bringing people together in person again to build community as 49ers fans and we did a away game watch party in the Castro, which for those who don't know is a historically gay neighborhood in San Francisco, and I'm pretty sure it's the first drag queen half time that I've ever heard of, at least sponsored by an NFL team, is awesome. So it's a really fun, cool, way for people to just celebrate and enjoy being 49ers fans and have a community.

And then you asked also about our women's official club. So WON: Women of the Niners is our official women's club. And that's something we've had for a long time. But we did rebrand a couple of years ago, to try to reach an even broader swath of fans. You know, we want to be reaching all of our fans, which very much includes the women who make up almost 50% of our fan base, and given what a kind of a big number that is, it's also a very diverse fan base. So we have women fans who are 14 years old. We have women fans who are 94 years old. We have women fans of every ethnicity, every socioeconomic background, and every level of fan ability. So we have extremely avid fans who want to see us breaking down all the X's and O's for them. And then we have casual fans who are interested in some of the storylines, some of the personal stories behind our players and their families and where they've come from, but who may or may not feel like they've gotten enough of an education in the game to fully enjoy and appreciate the game. And so we try to meet everyone where they're at and ensure that they both feel a part of the 49ers and that they're getting what they need to, to really, enjoy the game and be passionate about our team. So those are those two of our fan engagement clubs.

Passionistas: So what does your week leading up to the Super Bowl look like? What do you do next week?

Hannah: There is a lot happening. The team will leave on Sunday. All other staff and friends and family will leave on Thursday. There's a lot of preparation work that goes into a Super Bowl for participating teams. A lot of it is handled by the NFL. They make it as easy as they can on participating teams, but there's still certainly, our legal team has been cranking away on everything from hotel agreements, us travel agreements. When you have a travel party of about 2000 people that you need to get across the country and then move around in a city that's going to be packed with millions of people, it's a pretty intense experience. So there's a lot logistically that goes into all of that. It'll be, it'll be a busy week, but a really fun week. So the game is on Sunday. People will largely kind of be, you know, there's a lot of different events that happen in the couple of days, the lead up to the Super Bowl, but we're also very focused on, you know, we're coming there with a job to do and that's to win that game.

Passionistas:  How do all the departments work together leading up to the Super Bowl?

Hannah: Everybody works together kind of regardless, because none of this happens without a lot of collaboration. So you've got folks from stadium operations who have already flown down to Miami to start setting things up. You've got folks from the football travel logistics side. We're also already there, our community relations team does a lot of support around the family members of our players. So there'll be hunting down early, making sure that we have daycare and resource centers and making sure everybody has all the information they need to have a really wonderful trip and celebrate their family member who's going to be competing on the field. So every it takes, I mean to say it takes a village would be sounded cliche, but it definitely takes a full, a 400 person organization to do it.

Passionistas: So what's the most rewarding part of what you do?

Hannah: I'll tell you two things that happened in the last week that I think sort of epitomized regardless of when we are in season. What's the most rewarding after the NFC championship? Seeing the faces of our players and coaches and staff who were so elated, that was truly rewarding. That's what you're working towards is that feeling of accomplishment and communal experience because it's also the, the feeling that our fans had in the stands. I think if you have not been to a football game in person, it's such a powerful communal experience that doesn't happen in a lot of other ways in American culture anymore. There aren't a lot of places where people come together in person and drop whatever is happening else wa elsewise in their lives or around them and have this incredible really community experience where you're having this shared emotion with 68,000 other people. Um, it's very unique. And so that is one of the most rewarding parts.

And then the other most rewarding part is the work that I've been able to do over the last few years with everything that we do in the community. And about a week and a half ago, one of the events that we did was for Martin Luther King day. We went and did reading with kindergartners and first graders at an elementary school and the little girl who I was assigned to be her reading partner. Oh my God. Like that sweet little face. Like I just like that is the most rewarding part when you, when you, you know, because the reality is like, at first I was like, she's not gonna want to read with me. Like I'm not a player, but it then you're reminded anytime you're with children that they're excited just cause you're an adult just because you have taken an interest in them and that you are there to help them. And so for me, the community work that we do, the joy that we're able to bring to other people, that is the other most rewarding part.

Passionistas: What do you think is the biggest risk that you've taken professionally and how did it pay off?

Hannah: I would say the biggest risk I probably took professionally was when I took the job, sort of the weight in order to take the job with the NFL because I was, I made half as much money at the NFL as I had been making it a law firm. Um, so that's always more risky. Um, and in the process I had actually been laid off in the like wake of like bloodbath of 2009 when law firms, including the one I was at, laid off 20% plus of associates. Um, and so I, I made the decision after that that I did not want to go back to working in another soulless life sucking job. Um, and even though I knew that the job I'd had, I was very blessed to have and allowed me to pay my bills. It paid very well. It was very prestigious, but it didn't feel true to me.

And so I wanted to do something that I felt passionate about and I knew that I was passionate about sports and that was what I really wanted to be working in. Now deciding that I was going to pursue that in the midst of the worst economic recession since the great depression was, you know, maybe not the best idea. Um, but I, you know, I waited until I got the job that I really wanted and that took six months between the time I stopped working, the time I started again. And that was terrifying. But that is certainly the risk that paid off because here I am now. So do you think there's a particular personality trait that you possessed that's helped you succeed in your career drive? I am a relentlessly driven person. Um, and I think that, I mean, you guys talk to Lindsay who I've worked with and so one of the amazing things that Lindsay does is really help you, um, define your strengths.

And so I was able with her to be able, like I already knew that, you know, being relentlessly driven was one of my strengths is also one of my weaknesses, but being able to very clearly say, yep, you know, drive, finish, you know, command competition, like here, here are my strengths. So yeah, I think certainly in sports a lot of us are very competitive people as part of why we're attracted to sports. Um, but I, I would say that, yeah, focus, drive, competition, command. Um, those would be, and, and relating to people. I would say that that's sort of my, my strengths that have, have worked out well for the career that I'm in.

Passionistas: You mentioned career coach Lindsay Gordon who nominated you. She told us that you're really supportive of women who are working in male dominated industries. What are some of the ways you've given women your support?

Hannah: Probably mostly through mentoring others, but also through all of the policy changes that we've talked before from our diversity interviewing policy to the fellowship that we created here. That is a rotational fellowship that gets a young woman who's just graduated from college into verticals where women are historically underrepresented, um, like sales, like finance, like business strategy and analytics because that really helps kind of change the future of what the pipeline looks like in those fields where, um, the ascent to the top is much more rapid and, and is actually viable cause there's a lot of protocols where that's not viable. Um, so I'd say both policy-wise and then, um, I really, I love mentoring younger people and so, um, whether it's somebody who's asking to have coffee, um, or somebody who has either worked for me or whatever it is, um, I love, I love hearing just what's going on in their lives and seeing the excitement they have about whatever is kinda up next for them.

Passionistas: Do you have a mantra that you live by?

Hannah:  I do not. I'm not really a mantra girl. I mean, I think they're lovely for like meditation and whatnot. But no, I don't have like three words that I live by. Although someone asked, I'm going to steal someone else's, someone asked our team reporter that question. And she was like, ''Oh, stay ready so you don't have to get ready. And I was like, ooh, I like that. Like that's a good just tip reminder for whatever you're doing. Stay ready so you don't have to get ready.

Passionistas: So what advice would you give to a young woman who wants to get into professional sports?

Hannah: Work really hard and work smart. So understand, and I say this to all young people who are looking to get into sports. The impression that you leave as a young person, um, is very important because this is a small industry at the end of the day and very relationship base. And so you want to be that first one in last one out. You want to demonstrate that work ethic, um, and your commitment to what your, your, your craft and what you're doing. And I also tell you when people, because sports is just an industry and it's not uh, a particular career, right? You could want to be a coach in sports. You could want to be a lawyer in sports. You could want to be a broadcast or in sports. And so you also need to have a commitment to whatever the craft is, the it is the you want to do in sports and to commit to being totally excellent at it because to make it in this business, you have to be the best at what you do.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to the Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Hannah Gordon. Tune into the Super Bowl on February 2nd at 6:30 PM Eastern, 3:30 PM Pacific on Fox when Hannah's team, the San Francisco 49ers take on the Kansas City Chiefs.

Please visit ThePassionistasProject.com to learn more about our podcast and our new subscription box filled with products made by women owned businesses and female artisans to inspire you to follow your passions, sign up for our mailing list to get 10% off your first purchase.

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Marla Isackson Is on a Mission to Help Women in Podcasting

Marla Isackson is the founder of the OSSA Collective and host of the Mind of a Mentor podcast. A former marketing executive for corporations like American Express, WebMD and Barnes and Noble, Marla formed Like a Boss Girls in 2004. The website was created for and about women to help and inspire them to make a living, make a difference, and make it big. In 2018, Marla rebranded her site as Ossa, a podcast network for female thought leaders dedicated to promoting social progress through the oldest form of communication and storytelling: the spoken word.

Learn more about Marla and OSSA.

Learn more about The Passionistas Project.

FULL TRANSCRIPT: 

Passionistas: Hi and welcome to The Passionistas Project Podcast. We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and today we're talking with Marla Isackson. A former marketing executive for corporations like American express, WebMD and Barnes and Noble, Marla formed Like a Boss Girls in 2004. The website was created for and about women to help inspire them to make a living, make a difference and make it big.

In 2018 Marla rebranded her site as Ossa, a podcast network for female thought leaders dedicated to promoting social progress through the oldest form of communication and storytelling — the spoken word.

So please welcome to the show, Marla Isackson.

Marla: Thank you so much for having me today. I'm really excited to be on. I really appreciate it.

Passionistas: Marla, what's the one thing you're most passionate about?

Marla: utting family aside, 'cause I'm most passionate about that. I would say that I'm really passionate about what I'm doing because I really feel that our mission with Ossa or my mission, I should say, is to really help elevate the voices of women. And I've been working at this for a long time, both with Like a Boss Girls and us. The bottom line, I want to make sure women really do have a seat at the table. That's so important to me.

Passionistas: Why?

Marla: Because we have a lot to say. I've been in a situation where I've been invited to the table, but then I'm been ignored through the process of developing Like a Boss Girls and Ossa. I've worked with some incredible women. I've met incredible women and I'm just impressed with how much value they can add to the conversation. So that's why I think it's important for women to be at the table and to be encouraged to contribute. We have a lot to offer. I've had the opportunity to work with some incredible women in my corporate life as well as with Like a Boss Girls and with Ossa I have learned and experienced that women have a tremendous amount of value to add and for women not to be having a seat at the table. It's an incomplete conversation.

Passionistas: Let's take a step back and you started your career in marketing, so tell us about that and some of the challenges you had working with these big corporations.

Marla: I'll take a step further back, which is I first started my life in retailing working for a department store that's not in existence anymore called Abraham and Straus. I learned a lot about the customer at that point. After two years I realized I could leverage that experience and knowledge and start my marketing career. So I've had the opportunity to work for a big company such as Citibank and American express, Barnes and noble and Web MD. And I honestly thought they were incredible opportunities. I felt very grateful. I worked hard. I learned a lot. I am who I am now because of the experiences I had working at these companies. I learned I, it was incredible on the job training. I have to say that and I loved meeting really cool people from different walks of life. It was a great experience. I can't deny it. I'm very, very glad that I had the opportunity to do so.

Passionistas: Talk a little bit about the challenges you faced being a woman with a lot of male colleagues.

Marla: I worked in corporate America during the time when there was a lot of conversation about the glass ceiling. So for example, not to date myself, but when I started working for the bank, I mean people walked around with a little bow ties what women did. So it was just a different world then. It's not that people were overtly hostile to women, but we felt very snubbed. And that was part of the issue. I think things began to change when more and more women were promoted into areas of importance. And then women were encouraged to speak at the table. But I will tell you that, you know, I definitely experienced times in these big companies where we'd be in a big conference and there'd be a lot of people around and I would say something and I would get ignored.

And then a guy would say the same thing and they would be like, Oh my gosh, what a wonderful idea. And that used to irritate me and it didn't just happen to me. It happened to a lot of women. And you know, I remember talking about it with some colleagues and we just were not sure how to crack the code. I mean, we tried different, you know, you know, standing up or speaking with a different tone and voice, but it didn't matter. So we weren't able to crack that code. But I absolutely experienced that situation on a number of occasions. It was really depressing. And I made me so angry because it really took away the value of that. I thought that I was adding to the conversation as well as to the company and that was a problem. There were situations where there are a couple of senior execs, males who, I don't know, maybe a little, we're a little more enlightened, pay attention to it a little bit more.

So I would say something, a guy would say something the same thing I said and, but then the executive would come back to me asking to clarify and add to my point. So you know, I started to see the change, but there were still a lot of situations where that was a problem. You know, there's still a lot of situations where male executives, they'd go golfing and you know, not to say women don't golf, but a lot of us didn't golf. A lot of businesses held when the golf course. So I'm hoping that the generation of today that women are playing golf because that's super important. But it really is a metaphor illustrating the fact that I still felt different. I was the other person. I wasn't one of the crew, I don't even say one of the guys, but I didn't feel like I was one of the gang when we had conversations like this.

Also, many of the senior executives had wives that worked. So I will never forget having the conversation with the senior executive who said, don't worry about it, Marla, you know, your husband makes a lot of money. You know, when, when I was talking about a particular promotion, yeah, that's okay. You know, you'll be, you'll be okay. But he really needs the money. So I'm hoping those kinds of conversations don't still happen, but I will never forget that conversation. I didn't even know it. How do you respond to that? I didn't even know what to say. I was stunned, absolutely stunned. There was situations where I would be, you know, I was hired. This was not a titty bank or American express. And I find out that people working for me, older guys were making more money than I was making. So this stuff went on a lot.

And again, I haven't worked for a big company in a long time, but I certainly hope that there have been some changes that have been made.

Passionistas: Why did you decide to strike out on your own and what was your first project?

Marla: Basically I had great experiences, so the big corporations were incredible just based on the projects I've worked on and the people I managed, the huge marketing budgets that I had. I ended up working for a startup, so I had a bit of that taste of startup and then I worked for a smaller company and I will tell you that honestly I got really exhausted. It was very tiring. I felt like I was consistently having to parrot what they wanted me to say. I didn't feel like I was in control because I wasn't because it wasn't my company. I would certainly voice my opinion when we discussed strategy, but I was not the ultimate decision maker.

And that got me super frustrated and it got to a point where in addition to just feeling kind of exhausted, I also wanted be in a situation where I was affecting the outcome and I was focusing on a project that I felt really passionate about. Not that I didn't love my jobs, I certainly did love them, but I felt it was really time to take that next step and really focus on things that really sing to me.

Passionistas: Tell us about founding Heart of Gold Girls and why you wanted to work with teens specifically.

Marla: That was my first foray into having my own company and I decided to focus on the teen market cause my daughter was a teenager at the time and I really felt that teen girls were not being served the way they should. And this was like very early days internet. So a lot of stuff that teen girls were exposed to was a lot of stuff about celebrities and how to please your man and all this other nonsense.

But I didn't see that there was a whole lot of conversations focusing on really developing as a woman and following your passion and making an impact in the world. So that was quite a number of years ago and I wanted to do something about that. So that's why I founded Heart of Gold Girls and it was a content social media site as well. And we did that for about two years or so. I had a small team of people and then after a while I felt that I could not serve teen girls the way I wanted to serve them. I think, you know, obviously I'm much older and my daughter was not a teen anymore and I just felt like I wasn't close enough to the customer and that made me uncomfortable. So we repositioned to Like a Boss Girls and we were like really the first boss girl thing.

And then all of a sudden afterwards, like everyone is a girl boss, a boss, girl, a boss, babe, whatnot. But basically what I wanted to do was to help women starting out. So either leaving high school or college or postgraduate. I know, again, this is really based on the experiences of my daughter and son. That's a really hard transition to make. It may not be the first time that you're living on your own because a lot of people do go to college, but it's the time that you're really an adult and you have to make some decisions that maybe in the past your parents would make for you. And I felt that that was important and I wanted to create structure. I wanted to create content that would be useful to this population that would really help them make the transition more effectively so that they actually could get to where they wanted to be.

So again, it was a content site and focused on getting a job, money, health and wellness relationships. We covered a whole bunch of different verticals, again, with the mindset of women just starting out in the world who maybe need a little support. The other reason why I did this, again, I'm a like a research nerd and I remember reading a lot of research that when people graduate from college, they often move to towns or cities and they're not from that area and there's a lot of loneliness and not a whole lot of connection. And again, it was as the internet was kicking in, we felt that there was an opportunity to use all these tools to help women feel more connected with each other. And that was another goal.

Passionistas: At what point in your journey did you decide to get into podcasting and why did you do that?

Marla: It was the beginning of 2018 and in a strategy session with my team and we were talking about ways to amplify Like a Boss Girls amplify the brand, extend the brand, have a touch more people. And my team suggested very strongly that I start a podcast, which I really didn't want to do, but I did. And we call it Mind of a Mentor. And again, the structure is about, it does talk about mentoring, but the woman being interviewed is actually the mentor. So essentially she's taking us through her heroic journey, which we all have and talking about challenges, issues, obstacles that they encountered along the way and how they did or did not deal with these issues. So I thought it was a great platform. I would say my first few episodes were horrendous because I was petrified. But then as I got into it, I really enjoyed the medium a lot.

I just said, well this is just a really, really cool, I like the fact that I'm getting to speak with a lot of very interesting women cause Mind of a Mentor does focus on women and it just was really liking the medium. And then I did more research to learn more about podcasting and based on the research, lo and behold, huge opportunity growing channel also found out that women were not monetizing to the level that men were monetizing when it came to podcasting. I think men were involved with podcasting a lot earlier on, so they tended to have the bigger podcasts. And I felt that podcasting was a natural medium for women because I think you can get into both the emotional issues as well as the more practical issues when two women are having a conversation. So did my research, saw that there was an opportunity and decided to take mine to have a mentor to take the concept of podcasting and actually go the next step, which is creating the Ossa platform.

Passionistas: So before we get to Ossa, so tell us a little bit more about the podcast. What types of women do you interview and what have you learned from them?

Marla: I would say that I've interviewed, oh my gosh, all kinds of women. I've interviewed athletes. I've interviewed women in transition, women who have had abusive relationships, women who had seriously horrible childhood. Bottom line is they're all professional women. They all have jobs, they run a business, they have a career. But they've all gone through some really serious issues along the way. And I felt that these stories were really interesting. They're very, very helpful because what they've gone through is not unusual. So there are many women unfortunately who have been in these kinds of situations. So the objective is for someone listening to Mind of a Mentor to be able to say, well, you know, if she could do it then I can do it. And that's the framework.

Passionistas: We're Amy and Nancy Harrington and you're listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Marla Isackson. To learn more about her podcast network for female thought leaders, visit OssaCollective.com. Now here's more of our interview with Marla.

Passionistas: Tell us more about Ossa and the mission and how it works for both the podcast or and the advertiser.

Marla: In my mind, the best way to help women accomplish and achieve their goals. A lot of it has to do with financial goals. So you've got to make money. Making money is really important. Having that career is really important. And again, going back to the research and looking at the difference in monetization, I saw that there was a really big gap, which just did not seem right to me. So well the overall objective is really to help women podcasters monetize their podcast and extend their voice.

But we actually are a matching platform, which is very similar to when you go online to select a flight. You put in your criteria and up pops the flights that match your criteria. Ossa is a matching site, so we work with brands, they can leverage the platform, put in their respective criteria, and up pops the podcast that meet that criteria. So we make the match. So we're helping brands make more money reach women that they may not have reached before because of the opportunity to speak to a very targeted group of women in these podcasts. And we're also working with women who love podcasting, but maybe had not cracked the code on how to make money. So that was really the objective.

Passionistas: How do you help smaller podcasters grow their audience and appeal to advertisers?

Marla: Basically? We've done a couple of things. Most recently we launched an eCourse called grow your show and it's a really cool, I love it because we had subject matter experts in our community create each module.

So it's a very like organic kind of course, which is you go on, you take each module, you learn tips, tools, resources in terms of what to do to increase your numbers. But you're hearing from women who have gone through very similar experiences and they bring their own flavor to the conversation. So that's something we're very proud of. We just launched that very recently. So that's one thing. When you become a podcast or on Ossa, you can join our private Facebook group and on Ossa, various online guests, webinars, we record the calls, they're on various topics relating to podcasting and we'd push it out to our members are also podcast members. We have an Ossa special Ossa newsletter for our members where we talk about opportunities, new findings. We will bring in, if there's some news in the podcasting world, we'll connect that information. The other thing we do is, you know, getting back to sort of podcasting news on our content site, which we still have, which is pivoted more towards podcasting.

We try to use it as a tool to make podcasts are smarter about podcasting. So my point is the more information tools and resources we can put in a Podcaster's hands, we feel that hopefully they will use that information to actually focus on growing their numbers. And we're constantly thinking of other new opportunities to help our podcast or community cause it's super important to us.

Passionistas: And is there something that you personally have learned as a podcaster from all of these resources?

Marla: I think a couple of things. The first is that everyone has a story and it doesn't have to be dramatic. You don't have to be the most famous person in the world. But every woman, everyone has a story. And the wisdom that's conveyed during these conversations is remarkable about all different facets of life, work, relationships, parents, etcetera. So I'm enjoying the richness of these conversations and I didn't quite think that that would be the situation.

I don't know what I was expecting, but I didn't quite expect this. So that's a big thing. I have enjoyed meeting just overall some amazing woman that I would not have met in the past. So having the podcast has enabled me to reach out and go beyond my job function and connect with women that there's not a chance that I ever would have met them before and it's made my life richer. So I've enjoyed that.

Passionistas: So do you ever feel unmotivated and if you do, how do you get past it?

Marla: I'm sure many of us have seen the cartoons that show the life of an entrepreneur, which one day you're up, one day you're down. When you're up, one day you're down. And I feel that way. So the thing is that I'm like other entrepreneurs inpatient, I'm wanting things to happen faster than they're happening.

I get cranky when I realized that I could maybe move faster if I had more investment dollars. So these are things that can get to me after a time that can make me wake up and say, Oh, what am I doing? Like really, what am I doing? But then I get on a conversation with my team and I get jazzed again because I see the opportunity. So look, it's really hard to sustain that level of energy every day. And there are ups and downs, but I think what I really try to do is think of my overall goal and just try to be a little more patient, which is not easy, not easy.

Passionistas: Do you have a character trait that you think really helps you keep going?

Marla: I am a bit of a perfectionist, which can be good or bad, but I use the perfectionism as I know something should get done.

It would be great if it would get done. So I make it happen and that process leads to me enhancing my business. So that sort of impatience is, as I said, good and bad. I'm very curious. So I'm on the computer a lot. We have to be careful because that could be the big black hole, but I'm constantly doing research about topics relating to podcasting or the economy because I want to be smarter and I want more knowledge that I can create strategies that will be even more impactful. So I think it's important to be curious and I am super curious. One of the reasons why I enjoy podcasting so much or the act of being a podcast host is that I'm very curious and it gives me an opportunity to ask a whole lot of questions that probably would not be polite for me to ask in any other venue.

But because you're having a conversation on a podcast, I'm free to ask whatever question I want. So I enjoy that. So I think curiosity is probably a really big piece of who I am.

Passionistas: Do you find now that you are asking people questions on the podcast, do you carry that over more into your social personality?

Marla: I think what I've learned from podcasting is to pay more attention. So, for example, with my end of a mentor, I asked women to start in their early days because I'm always trying to listen for themes and threads that I can pull in to the latter part of the conversation. So when a woman is talking about what she's doing now, obviously most cases there's a huge correlation to the way they were as a young girl and their focus and their interests now. So that's kind of what I try to do.

I don't know if it extends to my personal life, but I guess overall I try to be a better listener, let's put it that way. I really do. I think that's an important point. I think it's taught me to be a more patient listener.

Passionistas: Looking back on your whole journey so far, do you think that there was one decision that you consider your most courageous and that sort of changed the trajectory of your path?

Marla: I think there were a couple of key points, but I will tell you that in the summer, because this is a fairly recent experience, I was at one of the major podcast conferences and I started to talk about Ossa in a way that I don't know why I hadn't talked about also this way before I elevated the conversation. I talked about Ossa in a much bigger way and I realized that that was a huge turning point because I actually believe that Ossa can be what I was saying.

It could be more specifically. I decided to go all in and that was a really big decision and that was really a result of this conference I went to, which was like, am I going to make it or not? If I wanna really achieve what I'm saying I want to achieve, I gotta be all in and be super passionate about what I'm doing. That was important. That was just the summer actually. That was a very important turning point for me.

Passionistas: So what's your secret to a rewarding life?

Marla: I think it's a couple of things. Number one, it's just taking a step back and just counting my blessings. It's gratitude. You know, life is not easy. There are ups and downs, but I think for me it's always been important for me to say, wow, I am very grateful. I am grateful that I am where I am, that I have such a great family, that I've been able to build a career. I'd never take anything for granted. So I think it's really a lot has to do with gratitude.

Passionistas: Is there a mantra that you live by?

Marla: Yes. And now my team lives by it. So there's a great digital marketing person who's, I think she's amazing. Her name is Marie Forleo. She's very popular. She does these awesome courses and her mantra is everything is figureoutable. And that's, I've adopted that as my mantra. So so many times my team members, maybe they're flipping out about something, they're worried about something and I'm like, chill, everything is figureoutable. We'll figure it out. No one's dying over this. There is a solution. So to me that has gotten me through some really hairy experiences.

Passionistas: What's your definition of success?

Marla: It's two things. It's being able to really touch a lot of women, cause Ossa is a passion project for me. Yeah, I want to make money, but, but there's a passion and a purpose for what I'm doing.

Also being able to say that I've really was able to help women elevate their voices and expand their podcasts and help them make money. That's super important. And in turn, honestly, me being able to make money is very helpful as well. I mean, I'm not a nonprofit, so the fact that I can earn money doing something that I'm so passionate about that I believe is mission driven to me is a win-win. That's my definition of success.

Passionistas: Thanks for listening to The Passionistas Project Podcast and our interview with Marla Isackson. To learn more about her podcast network for female thought leaders, visit OssaCollective.com.

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